Spitfire Interior colours: Aluminium and/or IGG

[DOD]

Hi All,

 

This is my first post on the site (or any site) so please be gentle with me!

After a break of some 40 plus years in aircraft modelling, I am actually working on conversions of a Spitfire PR XI and PR IV and am getting confused on where the interior colours for these are, particularly in the cockpit area. I have searched on the site and internet generally but cannot quite get what I am after (perhaps my search skills are not great) though there seems to be plenty of discussion on the actual colour/shade of IGG. I have found a reference in the post “Detail finish for a mid war Spitfire PR XI “(August 29, 2019) where Troy Smith states “mid-late 43 the interior went from IGG cockpit with all the other interior aluminium paint”.

 

Does this imply that prior to this date all interior finishes were IGG?

For aircraft that are IGG and aluminium, what precisely constitutes the cockpit? Would the IGG be walls and frames up to and including frame 13 at the end of the canopy or just walls to 13 and the frame itself aluminium or walls and frame up to frame 12?

 

I have looked at a variety of photographs, which are primarily b/w so difficult to make out. I am interested in the topic for all Spitfires as I hope to go on to other subjects later but confusion reigns. For example in Airframe and Miniature No12 there are photos of the Mk1 at Cosford which seems to have an aluminium interior, viewed through radio hatch but the above indicates it may be IGG(?). You can also see builds by various modellers of different marks and what is painted IGG and aluminium varies tremendously, so no guide there!

 

If anyone can help or point me to a reference it would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks, David Docherty

[Seawinder]

[deleted] See my post below.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Seawinder

[Graham Boak]

Early Spitfires are said to have had an apple green interior, by which I mean anything visible from the cockpit and possibly more.  In the later scheme the Grey Green (which is a standard RAF colour so should be fairly easy to find) was in all cockpit areas: the Aluminium paint was retained for the rear fuselage interior which wouldn't be visible, especially in a pressurised PR aircraft.  IGG didn't exist, which might explain some of the confusion.   Interior Green is a US colour which did vary between manufacturers. 

[Troy Smith]

45 minutes ago, DOD said:

Does this imply that prior to this date all interior finishes were IGG?

For aircraft that are IGG and aluminium, what precisely constitutes the cockpit? Would the IGG be walls and frames up to and including frame 13 at the end of the canopy or just walls to 13 and the frame itself aluminium or walls and frame up to frame 12?

You can 'tag' members by adding the '@'  and then start typing the members name like @DOD

 

OK, Spitfire interiors apart from the cockpit, and engine bearers was all aluminium paint. (sometimes this get confused with bare metal)  this is gun bays, engine bay, interior part of wheel well, inside of flaps, rest of fuselage interior.

 

visible here, note inside of gun bay door and radio hatch, alu paint,  and compare to cockpit door, grey green.

 

Spitfire in England by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

in this image, seems the rear of the seat bulkhead is Alu paint

 

Spitfire Mk.V cockpit. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Kieth Park in Mk.V on Malta, framing can be seen

Spitfire cockpit, 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

This is interesting, in the areas covered by the wing fillet is in a yellowish chromate primer, note the flap lying in the ground is in alu paint

Spitfire boneyard. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

There was a switch too all Grey Green interiors,  late 43 or early 44, may well depends on factory,  I think it was @Peter Roberts  who posted photos of an unrestored Australian Spitfire VIII, showing this GG and Alu, which gave one date. I'll see if I can find this.

EDIT it was @Magpie22...

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234978050-vol-2-all-the-spitfire-questions-here/&do=findComment&comment=3559879

 

 

"This is A58-529, (MT682), after being recovered, having spent some time underground. She was erected at Eastleigh in May 1944 and delivered to Australia in July 1944.

 

Still visible is the green of the cockpit area, back to Frame 12. That frame, and the area behind, are aluminium, as is the entire rear fuselage.

Vestiges of the original DFS scheme and RAF style roundels are also visible.

 

I'm not saying that all MK. VIII aircraft were finished this way, but that method of finish was still being employed into May 1944.

 

Hope this helps a little. Good luck with your projects,

Peter Malone" 

 

 

 

Mk.VIII in Italy, note alu, and areas in chromate primer

Merlin service, 1944 by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

this is a XVI, note the GG oil tank

Spitfire Mk.XVI     1945. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

for the cockpit see here

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/anatomy-of-spitfire-cockpit.html

 

"The aircraft serving as our subject is Supermarine Spitfire Mk. Vb BL628 YO-D, recently completed by Avspecs Ltd in Auckland, New Zealand. Due to the fantastic quality of the restoration work which took full 30 years, the cockpit of this Spitfire conforms almost entirely to wartime production standards. For this reason, the following photographs can serve as reliable reference to the cockpit layout of the production Spitfire Mk. V."

 

 

The aluminium paint is just visible on this image of an early PR XI on the frame, compare with the grey grey back armour.

Spitfire PR XI   Nov. 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

All the period colour pics are from here, this is just the Spitfires, 

 

there are some PR XI's here,  and careful study of these will be very informative for many details, 

 

HTH

[Peter Roberts]

Well picked up Troy - Magpie22 would have posted that pic. He is a well known expert in this area.

 

I can add that the NZ Airforce Museum in Christchurch has a Mk XVI in their collection that has been fully restored and repainted. The team assured me that they carefully colour matched to the original colours. The interior is NOT the typical grey green, but more of a lighter green similar to that posted by Troy of the Vb above, and photos posted here by Edgar (many years ago) of the colour of items from a Mk II.

 

As per the photos posted by Troy above, the inside of the rear fuselage from the area immediately behind the frame carrying the pilots seat was painted aluminium. There are several other photos that seem to confirm this. I am sure a modification was introduced at one point to stop painting this aluminium and leave the interior as bare metal - I recall being told of this and finding it in Spitfire the History, but I am away from my ‘library’ at present so unable to check. From memory, this was during Mk VIII/IX production (?)

Edited January 14, 2021 by Peter Roberts

[Seawinder]

1 hour ago, Peter Roberts said:

As per the photos posted by Troy above, the inside of the rear fuselage from the area immediately behind the frame carrying the pilots seat was painted aluminium. There are several other photos that seem to confirm this. I am sure a modification was introduced at one point to stop painting this aluminium and leave the interior as bare metal - I recall being told of this and finding it in Spitfire the History, but I am away from my ‘library’ at present so unable to check. From memory, this was during Mk VIII/IX production (?)

That's what I too thought, but I was confused by some of what was posted in this thread above, the question being whether the area behind the pilot seat frame was aluminum or green (whatever specific shade that may have been). FWIW, there's also discrepancy between the painting instructions in various recent Spitfire kits: Both the 1/48 Eduard and Tamiya Mk. I instructions call for aluminum starting behind the seat frame, while the 1/48 Airfix Mk. I/Ia/IIa instructions call for the whole area in green.

[spitfire]

Looking through my Edgar notes the order to stop painting the interior of the fuselage behind the frame with the pilots seat was specific to the Mk. IX.

 

Posted 08 March 2014 - 06:06 PM

Behind the seat bulkhead didn't count as part of the cockpit; spill, or drop, something, and it's easier to see on silver than green.
Just to confuse matters, though, later in the war the area did go green, but, on a V, it should still have been the original silver.
Edgar

 

Painting of the rear fuselage interior aft of the cockpit area on the Mk IX ceased as of 13 September 1943. But the practice of painting the entire interior in interior green likely ceased before that order was published. So early Spit IXs would have been all green, after the above date the unpainted aluminum rear fuselage was common.

 

The dropping of the interior painting applied only to the IX (the Vickers ledger is very specific on that point.) With the VIII being earmarked, exclusively, for overseas service, the painting was probably retained as an anti-corrosion measure for ship-borne transportation.
Edgar

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[DOD]

Hi there,

 

Many thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to my question, it is much appreciated.

 

I am still not 100% clear but I think that is ever going to be the case.

As I understand it Spitfires generally had a grey green (GG) cockpit and the area behind the seat and the rest of the fuselage was painted aluminium (Al).

However, at some point in 1943 this was changed to the whole fuselage being GG.

There seem to exceptions to this:

Mk IX’s started as all GG then 13, Sept, 1943 changed back to GG and Al as initially.

It is believed the Mk VIII retained all GG. But we have a picture of a recovered Mk VIII with Al from the seat bulkhead backwards.

There is also a photo of a Mk V with Al seat bulkhead.

The NZ Mk XVI has GG with Al but is this contrary to all going GG?

 

Any clarification/confirmation would be appreciated.

 

regards

David

 

PS what is a tag?

[Seawinder]

2 hours ago, DOD said:

Hi there,

 

Many thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to my question, it is much appreciated.

 

I am still not 100% clear but I think that is ever going to be the case.

As I understand it Spitfires generally had a grey green (GG) cockpit and the area behind the seat and the rest of the fuselage was painted aluminium (Al).

However, at some point in 1943 this was changed to the whole fuselage being GG.

There seem to exceptions to this:

Mk IX’s started as all GG then 13, Sept, 1943 changed back to GG and Al as initially.

It is believed the Mk VIII retained all GG. But we have a picture of a recovered Mk VIII with Al from the seat bulkhead backwards.

There is also a photo of a Mk V with Al seat bulkhead.

The NZ Mk XVI has GG with Al but is this contrary to all going GG?

 

Any clarification/confirmation would be appreciated.

 

regards

David

 

PS what is a tag?

Hi DOD. I was in the middle of composing roughly the same remarks when you posted. Regarding your last point abut the NZ XVI, Edgar's statements above on the re-institution of painting the area behind the seat during/after Mk. IX production doesn't specify whether this painting was in green or aluminum. Besides being borne out to some extent by the NZ XVI, aluminum would not have been unlikely given the whole fuselage interior aft of the area was probably also painted aluminum.

 

From a modeling point of view, what I take from this is that unless we're doing an early Mk. IX, we're probably going to want to use some sort of aluminum either to simulate painted or unpainted metal.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Seawinder

[DOD]

Hi Seawinder,

 

I agree with your modelling comments but taking into regard that you may have a specific subject for which you have photographic evidence for one of these anomalies.

 

cheers.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, DOD said:

PS what is a tag?

specifically it means this AFAIK, @DOD  which should add a little number in a red box by the bell symbol in the top right,  you will also get those if some someone quotes you.

Just means you can be notified of your part, or a request in a thread.    If you have not seen this, look in the top right, and you'll see two notifications, satin I quoted you and I mentioned you.

Just a way of being notified of responses to threads you have posted in,  or a way for another member to alert you that you might be interested or could contribute to a question.

 

Another useful tool is the heart symbol in the bottom right,  this is 'response' button,  it's a way appreciating a post without adding lots of short 'thanks' posts,  which is why used to happen.   

 

1 hour ago, DOD said:

I am still not 100% clear but I think that is ever going to be the case.

As I understand it Spitfires generally had a grey green (GG) cockpit and the area behind the seat and the rest of the fuselage was painted aluminium (Al).

However, at some point in 1943 this was changed to the whole fuselage being GG.

There seem to exceptions to this:

Mk IX’s started as all GG then 13, Sept, 1943 changed back to GG and Al as initially.

It is believed the Mk VIII retained all GG. But we have a picture of a recovered Mk VIII with Al from the seat bulkhead backwards.

There is also a photo of a Mk V with Al seat bulkhead.

The NZ Mk XVI has GG with Al but is this contrary to all going GG?

 

Any clarification/confirmation would be appreciated.

Up to you.   I've not seen reference before to the interior of the early IX being all green, which is interesting as the IX use basically a V fuselage. 

 

your original comment/questions mentioned a PR IV and a PR XI.

In the colour image of the PR XI I posted, you can can see aluminium framing at the rear of the cockpit.  I'd expect the PR VI to be painted aluminium as the Mk.V I posted. 

 

Your PR XI may depend on when built, the colour PR XI pic is an early one.  

The production dates are listed here

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html

 

Note this film of USAAF PR XI, clearly shows aluminium inside camera hatch, and this is MB*** serial plane.   Also full of a lot of detail and a feel for a working PR airframe.

 

 

HTH

[DOD]

Hi Troy,

Thanks once again for explaining Tags and further information.

 

Regarding the Mk IX info I took this from the Edgar notes that ‘spitfire’ posted. I do not know much about this but noticed in Airframe and Miniatures No 12 there are photos of “The Greek Spitfire Mk IX” which I am taking to be MJ755 and they seem to be green on the inside of the fuselage.

 

My main interest at the moment is the PR IV (AA810, FF 17,10,41, No 1 PRU) and PR XI (PL914, 6MU 2,9,44, USAAF 14th PRS) so it is these that I wish to establish.

 

I have some colour photos of PL914 but none are clear enough to determine the interior colour. I have also seen photos of other PR XI aircraft with camera hatches open and they also appear aluminium eg PL994 subsequently supplied to Norwegian Airforce. However, in Merlin Spitfires in Detail, M Laird and W Matusiak there is in interior of an unidentified aircraft that is green inside!

 

I have seen the video supplied when looking for the video Spitfire 944 and also found it very interesting.

 

So I think Mk IV AA810 is as you say, Aluminium behind the seat frame. I think this seems likely with the PR XI as well.

 

I was inspired back to aircraft modelling after seeing the Digging for Britain programme about the recovery of AA810 from Norway and the subsequent restoration. I wanted to build this and started research. At same time developed an interest in PR generally and Spitfires in particular. Saw the PR XI USAAF schemes and liked the look of them. So started on them when I saw this video from Secret Spitfires about AA810.

https://www.secretspitfires.com/a-secret-spitfire-found-from-one-of-the-secret-factories/

 

In it they mention that the gun access panels were there though I had been led to believe that these would not have been as part of the ‘bowser wing’. So on hold for further research!

 

Perhaps further posts are required on modelling these aircraft.

 

Thanks again for all comments and photo references.

 

David

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, DOD said:

In it they mention that the gun access panels were there though I had been led to believe that these would not have been as part of the ‘bowser wing’. So on hold for further research!

Just checked the linked video, the chap says "the underwing gun bays still there on the four" 

 

@ben_m is a PR Spitfire buff, @gingerbob  is good on detail.   

 

Given the AA810 is pretty early as PR Spitfire, I suggest they wing was still a modified fighter wing,  but I'm not that up on the history of the bowser wing. .   It also does not say which panel it was,  as there was provision for a wing camera,  or what the basic wing was.   The chap in the video may well know,  so see if you can contact them, and inquire further.  You could ask what colour the inside of the fuselage is as well.

 

I also hope they kept the camera running when Norman was going into specific detail....

 

Right now I'm not going to go on an info hunt to see what I can turn up, but I'll have a look later.  

 

Given there are not PR IV and PR XI kits, how are you thinking of doing these,  

 

This has discussions on various methods 

and this may have some useful info

 

 

and it's well worth using google to search here as well.

 

cheers

T

 

 

[DOD]

 

Hi Troy,

 I do not know how I missed this before but came across this photo of the Vickers assembly unit at Henley-on-Thames where the PR Spitfires were kitted out. It shows a PR IV and as you can see there are several panels under the wing, so your thoughts of modified fighter wings seems logical.

AFAIK though the PRIV was never fitted out for underwing cameras.

 

 

I do not know what the guy on top of the wing is doing. Seems like a sheet of metal he is working with.

 

I have a Tamiya Mk I for the PRIV and a ICM Mk IX for the PRXI in 1/48 and both will involve wing panel line filling and re-scribing.

 

As we are going a bit off tack with this I think I will post my thoughts on what I will do as a separate post in the near future to collate my thoughts and throw it open to all for comment/corrections. Looking at other posts on the subject there seems to be a trend to 'cross kit' with the Airfix XIX and get two models. However as the XIX is no longer available and I only want one I am going the re-scribe route.

 

I do not know if you have seen these photos from  flickr posted by Scott Blyth, relative of John Blyth of 944 fame.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24554019@N06/albums/72157619911531715

 

 

cheers

David