RAF Sky Blue for Spit Vc

[IanC]

I'm building the new Airfix Spitfire Vc and have chosen a USAAF 52nd FG scheme (JK180 QP-K)) from the Xtradecal sheet. It has overall 'Light Stone' uppersurfaces and 'Sky Blue' underneath.

 

I've been reading various discussions about Sky Blue, but I'm still a bit confused as to what it should look like. I normally use acrylics, but I've got two tins of Sovereign Colourcoats that I could also use - ACRN24 Sky Blue seems very pale, almost white, whereas ACRN29 Sky Blue is much bluer and more intense. Which is the more suitable? Or is there something else that works better. I'm assuming the Azure Blue is out - I seem to remember reading that most Spits destined for the ME had Sky Blue undersides.

 

And Light Stone? That's an armour colour to me. Is it just Middle Stone? Or possibly a locally obtained colour perhaps? Photos of other USAAF Spits seem to show several variations.

 

I've not even been able to find a photo of this particular aircraft, only various colour profiles.

 

Any help very gratefully received!

 

Thanks,

Ian

[Graham Boak]

Go with Azure Blue.  It is certainly not "out".  It has been reported that one factory produced Spitfires for overseas with Azure Blue, whereas another used Sky Blue.   However, as you point out, Sky Blue is very light, lighter than Sky, and the Middle East had rejected Sky undersides as being too light, initially using a mix of their own until this was standardised as Azure Blue.  Photographs of Spitfires in the Middle East never show a colour as light as Sky Blue.  It appears likely that the factory reference was actually to a generic sky blue - i.e. Azure Blue.

 

The reason why Colourcoats has two Sky Blues is because BS381C prewar had a colour called Sky Blue, which has been suggests as a possible colour seen on some Spitfires during the Battle of Britain.  However this was never standardised as an Air Ministry, later Ministry of Aircraft Production, colour available for use on aircraft.

 

Light Stone was indeed an Army colour, as was Middle Stone.  Which didn't stop the latter from being adopted.  I don't think that Light Stone was, but I can't confirm that at the moment.  US Spitfires do show considerable variations, although most of these seem to be on the later Mk.VIIIs.  I think that you are being very wise in doubting this scheme without photographic evidence, but I've a feeling I have seen an example with just such a mouth.  Perhaps in the Ventura booklets on US Spitfires?  Or unit histories of these two USAAF units?

[2996 Victor]

Hi Ian,

 

I have that Xtradecal sheet as well - some good schemes on it!

 

I'm not sure if this will help, but I've put some blobs of the various blues I have onto a piece of white card to compare their hues. They are all acrylics from the Vallejo Model Air range, reference numbers are alongside.

Original image, weak natural daylight:

http://

Image adjusted for brightness to show white card background:

http://

 

I appreciate that colour perception is unique to each person, prevailing light conditions have a significant effect, and that some degree of the actual colour will be lost in translation via the digital camera and computer screen. But hopefully this will help a little, if only for you discount these particular paints!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[Seawinder]

Hi Mark.

If the backing paper is white, then the photo, including the paint blobs, is all too dark. It's certainly useful for contrasting the hues, but it would be a better as an objective reference if you could correct the brightness in PhotoShop or some such.

[Graham Boak]

Better to use a neutral grey card.  That was the old advice for viewing colour chips: cut a square in a piece of grey card so that only that colour can be seen against a neutral background.

 

From above posting: the aircraft is not present in either of the Ventura booklets (lots more goodies are) nor in Ron Mackay's history of the 31st FG for Squadron Signal.

[Seawinder]

8 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Better to use a neutral grey card.  That was the old advice for viewing colour chips: cut a square in a piece of grey card so that only that colour can be seen against a neutral background.

 

From above posting: the aircraft is not present in either of the Ventura booklets (lots more goodies are) nor in Ron Mackay's history of the 31st FG for Squadron Signal.

Don't disagree, but to my eye the posted photo is patently too dark based at least on the Sky blob.

[Graham Boak]

Not arguing, just crossed posting.

[IanC]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Go with Azure Blue.  It is certainly not "out".  It has been reported that one factory produced Spitfires for overseas with Azure Blue, whereas another used Sky Blue.   However, as you point out, Sky Blue is very light, lighter than Sky, and the Middle East had rejected Sky undersides as being too light, initially using a mix of their own until this was standardised as Azure Blue.  Photographs of Spitfires in the Middle East never show a colour as light as Sky Blue.  It appears likely that the factory reference was actually to a generic sky blue - i.e. Azure Blue.

 

The reason why Colourcoats has two Sky Blues is because BS381C prewar had a colour called Sky Blue, which has been suggests as a possible colour seen on some Spitfires during the Battle of Britain.  However this was never standardised as an Air Ministry, later Ministry of Aircraft Production, colour available for use on aircraft.

 

Light Stone was indeed an Army colour, as was Middle Stone.  Which didn't stop the latter from being adopted.  I don't think that Light Stone was, but I can't confirm that at the moment.  US Spitfires do show considerable variations, although most of these seem to be on the later Mk.VIIIs.  I think that you are being very wise in doubting this scheme without photographic evidence, but I've a feeling I have seen an example with just such a mouth.  Perhaps in the Ventura booklets on US Spitfires?  Or unit histories of these two USAAF units?

 

Thanks Graham for that very helpful reply. I've since found two tins of Colourcoats  Azure Blue - ACRN12 and ACRN34. Presumably the latter is an updated mix to reflect new research? It certainly looks similar to the shade seen in original colour photos. 

 

 

 

 

[IanC]

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Hi Ian,

 

I have that Xtradecal sheet as well - some good schemes on it!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

 

Thanks for your colour comparison Mark. Yes, some interesting schemes on that sheet, but the more research I do the more controversial they seem! It's just annoying I can't find photos of the one I want to do.    

[Graham Boak]

Yes, I believe Jamie did alter the hue of his Azure Blue.  The 12 is the original White Ensign paint.

[2996 Victor]

40 minutes ago, Seawinder said:

Hi Mark.

If the backing paper is white, then the photo, including the paint blobs, is all too dark. It's certainly useful for contrasting the hues, but it would be a better as an objective reference if you could correct the brightness in PhotoShop or some such.

Hi,

good point - I've added an additional copy of the image that I've corrected for brightness, but left the original for comparison purposes as I'm concerned that manipulation has affected the colours as well!

38 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Better to use a neutral grey card.

Agreed, Graham, but I didn't have any to hand and was trying to be quick....!

[2996 Victor]

30 minutes ago, Seawinder said:

Don't disagree, but to my eye the posted photo is patently too dark based at least on the Sky blob.

Unfortunately, the Vallejo Sky Type 'S' is quite beige, not really what I expected, not having previously used it on anything I thought it might be appropriate to include it. If anything, it would make quite a good IJN J3 Ameiro!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[Chuck1945]

.continuing this general topic, I am about to the painting stage on my Airfix Vc kits. One of the ones I’m doing is BP975 (or BR301) using the the DK Decal sheet, Malta Spitfire Aces. The color notes indicate USN blue-gray over Sky Blue undersides and that two cannon/wing is appropriate. I know there is some question regarding the USN Blue-Gray since it is not as dark as photos appear to show, but the Sky Blue underside is also a question in my mind. Another potential choice, BR387, also is shown with Sky Blue undersides. My copy of the Malta Spitfire V book is currently in-accessible so I can’t consult it...

[Graham Boak]

BP975 was an Operation Calender aircraft, the uppersurface colour for this delivery was Dark Mediterranean Blue.  The undersurface colour was almost certainly Azure Blue, throughout.  It has been suggested that at least some desert Spitfires from Castrle Bromwich were painted in the light Sky Blue, but even if so (there is considerable doubt) these aircraft weren't CB builds.

BR301 was an Operation Bowery  aircraft, the uppersurface colours for this delivery were Temperate Sea Scheme.  However, it had a somewhat varied life: it may have been painted in Desert Scheme when 601 Sq was prepared for transfer to the Western Desert, but it stayed on Malta in the hands of 249 Sq and will have received that unit's dark colour.  At some stage.

BR387 was an Operation Salient aircraft, the delivery colours are unconfirmed, but I believe this was photographed on Malta in a scheme consistent with Dark Mediterranean Blue  (or just possibly Extra Dark Sea Grey).

 

The DK transfers are based on old assumptions about the early colours, as unfortunately is Brian Cauchi's otherwise excellent book.  Paul Lucas has since gone back into the original records for Calendar and Bowery to extract the relevant, and somewhat intricate, stories of these deliveries.  The above comments are based on his results as published in Scale Aircraft Modelling and a long study of relevant photos.

[Chuck1945]

I didn’t realize the color information in Cauchi’s book has been superseded and since finding SAM in my area is hit or miss (mostly miss), not read Lucas’ results either. Thanks

[ClaudioN]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

The above comments are based on his results as published in Scale Aircraft Modelling

That would be interesting to read. Please, could you tell which issue?

[Clifton]

1 hour ago, Chuck1945 said:

.continuing this general topic, I am about to the painting stage on my Airfix Vc kits. One of the ones I’m doing is BP975 (or BR301) using the the DK Decal sheet, Malta Spitfire Aces. The color notes indicate USN blue-gray over Sky Blue undersides and that two cannon/wing is appropriate. I know there is some question regarding the USN Blue-Gray since it is not as dark as photos appear to show, but the Sky Blue underside is also a question in my mind. Another potential choice, BR387, also is shown with Sky Blue undersides. My copy of the Malta Spitfire V book is currently in-accessible so I can’t consult it...

I’m not sure if you’re going to use USN blue-gray or not, but for future reference, it’s the same shade as RAF PRU blue.  I can’t wait until the new Airfix Mk. V Spit makes its way to the States.  I’m sure it’ll be a fun kit.

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

using the the DK Decal sheet, Malta Spitfire Aces.

I've got this sheet as well and I'm also nearing the painting stage of my first Mk.Vc.

Thanks, @Graham Boak for the extra info on the DK sheet's colour call-outs, as I was also thinking of doing one or other of the ones shown as US Blue-Grey, so the information is timely!

 

36 minutes ago, Clifton said:

it’s the same shade as RAF PRU blue.

I've come to that conclusion and a couple of the colours I've attempted to show somewhere above look quite appropriate. Mr Color H42 Blue Grey might also be usable if a little darker.

It's a great kit, by the way!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[Graham Boak]

59 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

That would be interesting to read. Please, could you tell which issue?

Sorry Claudio, I only kept the excerpts and SAM doesn't put the issue date on the pages.  Two or three years back now, at least.  memory vaguely says January and February issues of whatever year it was.

 

I think it's a shame that these articles aren't collected into a book for publishing, as they just get lost as things are.   Admittedly they do vary chronologically but I'd have thought a collection of the WW2 ones would sell.

[johnd]

12/2015 "A Malta Story" pt.1 Operation Newman 4-13th April 1942

01/2016 "A Malta Story" pt.2 Operation Calendar 13-20 April 1942

 

are the ones I think are being discussed above. Apparently, there are follow-ups too:

 

08/2017 "Another Malta Story" pt.1

09/2017 "Another Malta Story" pt.2

 

10/2018 "A Malta Story Concluded" pt.1 Jun 42 - Oct 42

11/2018 "A Malta Story Concluded" pt.2 Nov 42 - Jul 43

 

John.

[2996 Victor]

On 16/01/2021 at 20:54, johnd said:

12/2015 "A Malta Story" pt.1 Operation Newman 4-13th April 1942

01/2016 "A Malta Story" pt.2 Operation Calendar 13-20 April 1942

 

are the ones I think are being discussed above. Apparently, there are follow-ups too:

 

08/2017 "Another Malta Story" pt.1

09/2017 "Another Malta Story" pt.2

 

10/2018 "A Malta Story Concluded" pt.1 Jun 42 - Oct 42

11/2018 "A Malta Story Concluded" pt.2 Nov 42 - Jul 43

 

John.

 

Unfortunately, hard copy back issues of these magazines seem almost impossible to find. However, they're all available as digital copies, although in the ones I found they cannot be downloaded or printed presumably for copyright reasons. I do think their being digital only reduces their usefulness slightly, but they're all very interesting and I spent an enjoyable afternoon yesterday reading through them all. I'm not entirely sure I'm any the wiser, however, and a complete re-read at least once, taking notes, is a definite necessity!

 

I would have thought, given the popularity of the subject, that Guideline Publications would have taken the opportunity to combine the articles into a single publication......

 

Cheers,

 

Mark