Back into modelling after 55 years, need paint advice please !

[Tyke]

https://flic.kr/p/2ks5DXe

 

 

I’m using lockdown to get into modelling again and I think I’ve bitten off more than I can chew !

Aliteri 1/72 Stirling Mk lV, my dad used to fly them and I’m building one to show the grandkids.

Im using Tamiya flat black for underneath and fuselage with a brush and it’s gone very patchy. I’ve thinned the paint on several layers but it still looks crap. Do you think I’d be better with a spray can ?

Edited January 14, 2021 by Tyke
Insert photo

[rossm]

Tamiya flat black normally works well for me - did you clean the surface first? It's a good idea to wipe it over with thinners to remove any residue from the moulding process and/or your hands. Alternatively give all the parts a warm soapy wash while on the sprue.

 

If that's the problem I don't know how to recover from where you are - maybe thinners would still work?

 

See what other thoughts you get before trying anything as I may have guessed wrongly on the source of the problem.

[IanC]

If you're brushing thinned black paint over the plastic without a primer it will take three or more coats. I find it quite hard to brush Tamiya paint, unless very heavily thinned. I'd leave it be, maybe rub it down with a polishing cloth or some fine sand paper, and then give it a couple of light coats from a spray can which will hopefully even it out and give a nice finish.  

[Pete F]

Just my thoughts:

 

1. As said above Tamiya are quite hard to brush paint. There is quite a lot of advise on this forum about how to do it (a Google search is best) and it often involves using additives to improve the flow.

 

2. You might consider not using a 'pure' black. It can look a little over powering especially at this scale. In fact RAF bombers were painted with a colour called Night which was black with a touch of ultramarine blue (I believe - but happy to be corrected). I find Tamiya's rubber black is a good fit and have used it on occasions to good effect.

 

Good to see you getting back into modelling - that is a big project but well worth it!

[Work In Progress]

If you are in an environment where you can use them safely in terms of ventilation, and in a dry warmish atmosphere, then a small selection of Halfords aerosol car paints are, for me, indispensible for both plastic scale and flying models, especially when you need to cover a large area in a single colour. They are:

• Satin black
• Gloss white i.e. basic "fridge white" rather a car manufactorer's uniquely tinted off-white
• Their basic aluminium
• The regular grey primer, which also doubles as matt Medium Sea Grey
• Gloss, satin and matt lacquers

I prime using their grey, white or yellow primer according to what the top colour will be - yellow primer is great for yellow, red or orange top coats

Paradoxically, don't use their "for plastic" primer - the latter is designed to key into car bumpers and so on, and will tend to melt your model. 

 

I would not use Halfords over any existing layers of model paint but you can put mormal model water-based acrylics and Humbrol / Xtracolor type enamels over Halfords just fine. They may be worth a try on a suitable experimental kit like a £5 bargain off ebay some time, especially if you have other uses for them in hobbies and crafts and DIY around the house.

 

[bentwaters81tfw]

Halfords = bombproof

[Werdna]

25 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

Paradoxically, don't use their "for plastic" primer - the latter is designed to key into car bumpers and so on, and will tend to melt your model

 

Have to say, I've not come across this issue before.  I use the Halfords plastic primer (grey) routinely as a base coat and nothing's melted yet..

[Tyke]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

I’ve got some Tamiya rubber black, might give that a try.

Going to try and get like a 570 Sqdn Rivenhall Stirling. Managed to get some decals to match my dad’s aircraft V8-L

 

cheers

[alt-92]

This is how Tamiya's rubber black looks like on an aircraft, and that's before a matt coat which ideally would be an even better finish.

 

[Seawinder]

IMHO it's also worth noting that any application of flat clear coat will significantly lighten the black towards dark grey to the extent that it almost matters more how much flat coat is applied than the blackness of the paint.

[Tyke]

Thanks for your replies everyone.

One last question, what’s the best finish to use and can it go over the decals ?

[Troffa]

Piping up for Spray Paint-  I recommend the Games Workshop rattle can:  Citadel Chaos Black.  It's a brilliant matt black acryllic spray and is very forgiving in application. You'll need a well ventilated area to use it, and some masking tape for the kit (Cockpit transparencies etc.) but it covers like a dream. dries fast and is readily available here in the UK.  Just in case you change your mind. 🙂 

 

Good luck with the Stirling!

 

Chaos Black

[Work In Progress]

17 hours ago, Tyke said:

Thanks for your replies everyone.

One last question, what’s the best finish to use and can it go over the decals ?

There is no single answer to that as it depends what paint is underneath. But in terms of process

1. Make everything properly gloss using something compatible 

2. Apply decals

3. Re-gloss

4. Apply satin or matt final coat as required.

 

My favoured all-purpose gloss and decal sucking-down agent is this, which brushes perfectly and self-levels and accepts most overcoats

Lakeland Quick Shine, £13.99 for a lifetime supply

https://www.lakeland.co.uk/20286/Quick-Shine-Floor-Finish-800ml

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, Work In Progress said:

My favoured all-purpose gloss and decal sucking-down agent is this, which brushes perfectly and self-levels and accepts most overcoats

Lakeland Quick Shine, £13.99 for a lifetime supply

https://www.lakeland.co.uk/20286/Quick-Shine-Floor-Finish-800ml

Blimey, thats expensive! I use 'Astonish', same formula as the famous 'Klear'. 750ml bottle about £1 at Home Bargains

[Chuck1945]

Tamiya’s NATO Black is another ‘black’ that actually isn’t quite black. I use it for for almost all 1/72 scale painting where black is desired.

[Work In Progress]

20 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Blimey, thats expensive! I use 'Astonish', same formula as the famous 'Klear'. 750ml bottle about £1 at Home Bargains

Given that I will only ever need to buy the one bottle, and at the time it was what I could buy over the road, I didn;t really consider the cost important. 

Compared to the model paint equivalent they're both effectively free in any case.

[ckw]

21 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Blimey, thats expensive! I use 'Astonish', same formula as the famous 'Klear'. 750ml bottle about £1 at Home Bargains

I'm always nervous about these bargain 'equivalents'  ,,, given that the Klear/Future ingredients list includes a number of proprietary ingredients (i.e. we don't know exactly what they are) how can you know that Astonish or Lakeland are exactly the same?

 

For me the big concern is yellowing. We know that Future/Klear is safe, because its been used for many many years (in my case 30) with no issues over time. Have the others been proven to stand the test of time? It could be that Astonish is actually a better product for modelling purposes that Future. But, as far as I know, there is no evidence for longevity for these 'equivalent' products ... I would be very happy to hear from anyone who has some.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[Black Knight]

2 hours ago, ckw said:

I'm always nervous about these bargain 'equivalents'  ,,, given that the Klear/Future ingredients list includes a number of proprietary ingredients (i.e. we don't know exactly what they are) how can you know that Astonish or Lakeland are exactly the same?

 

For me the big concern is yellowing. We know that Future/Klear is safe, because its been used for many many years (in my case 30) with no issues over time. Have the others been proven to stand the test of time? It could be that Astonish is actually a better product for modelling purposes that Future. But, as far as I know, there is no evidence for longevity for these 'equivalent' products ... I would be very happy to hear from anyone who has some.

1. How do I know. a, by the listed ingredients and b. by the tech info supplied by both makers. I use Astonish, and previously Klear, as a sealant on my leatherwork so I need to have that info to hand. Under UK law no ingredient may be kept secret on the tech info.

2. I've now been using Astonish for 10 plus years. No yellowing showing, but I have had some yellowing from early Klear, on items from about 7 years ago.

 

Buy your expensive acrylic varnish if you want.

I try to be helpful

so I'm out of here

[ckw]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

I've now been using Astonish for 10 plus years. No yellowing showing,

well thanks - that's the useful info I was asking for. I have no desire to spend more than I need to

 

Cheers

Colin

[Tyke]

2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

1. How do I know. a, by the listed ingredients and b. by the tech info supplied by both makers. I use Astonish, and previously Klear, as a sealant on my leatherwork so I need to have that info to hand. Under UK law no ingredient may be kept secret on the tech info.

2. I've now been using Astonish for 10 plus years. No yellowing showing, but I have had some yellowing from early Klear, on items from about 7 years ago.

 

Buy your expensive acrylic varnish if you want.

I try to be helpful

so I'm out of here

Do you put Astonish on after everything is finished, ie decals and do you put it on the cockpit canopy, windows etc?

[Black Knight]

I use Astonish for a lot of things as well as a varnish

I used it to thin Vallejo gloss varnish on this Dewoitine 520 prior to decaling

 

As Astonish is a gloss finish varnish it only gets applied after the decals in a one thin coat, then a matt varnish, or if the subject is shiny it'll get another coat or two, as on this Hawk

 

Astonish not only thins acrylic paint but makes it glossy and speeds up its drying. Astonish is self-levelling and that attribute also transfers to the acrylic paint

Yes, I dip my canopies in it, usually twice, just cos I do. 90% of the time the canopy is dipped as soon as I start a kit. I use a hairy stick paint brush so other windows on kit will get a brushed on coat of Astonish at the same time as everything else. After a canopy is stuck on I sometimes give it another brushed on coat,

[Tyke]

Thanks for all the replies chaps, I think I’ll want a matt varnish to put on first before Astonish.

last question!  What’s a good matt varnish?

[Pete F]

For a Stirling I would be inclined to do the matt coat last. It is a matter of personal preference but I find aircraft from this period often look better with a more matt finish. I use Winsor & Newton Professional Acrylic UV Matt Varnish. However I do use an airbrush to apply this, diluted with water. I find that it is harder to get a good matt coat by brush painting - but I'm sure it is possible with practice. 

[Chuck1945]

If you put a matt varnish on first, you will negate the matt if you follow with a gloss varnish.

[Ed Russell]

For most WW2 aircraft the sequence should be 1. wash to remove fingerprints etc, 2. paint, 3. high gloss (Future or equivalent - looking at the MSDS, as @Black Knight suggests is a good idea), 4. decals 5, matt varnish. Some people do it 4. decals, 5 more Future (to seal the decals) 6. matt varnish.