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Yokosuka glen silver paint colour?


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I'm going through a bit of a float plane phase at the moment and I've just taken ownership of a hobby 2000 glen.

The instructions are telling me to paint it silver, I thought that was a bit odd.

Looking at pictures on the net they are all the darker green or the lighter grey green.

Does silver sound ok to you guys?

 

Many thanks.

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Despite my rather considerable library I found only a few pictures of the E14Y, and these were mostly the same ones. The 'Glen' entered operational service on 17 December 1941 after the IJN had already given up the all-aluminium aircraft colour, so it's maybe the contemporary grey J3?

Cheers, Michael

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6 minutes ago, Doggy said:

I'm going through a bit of a float plane phase at the moment and I've just taken ownership of a hobby 2000 glen.

The instructions are telling me to paint it silver, I thought that was a bit odd.

Looking at pictures on the net they are all the darker green or the lighter grey green.

Does silver sound ok to you guys?

 

Many thanks.

 

4 minutes ago, Doggy said:

Hobby 2000 do two versions and one is dark green, I thought my version was the pale green.

helps if you say which kit.  

 

they do an early

1311215-47642-87-720.jpg

 

and a late

1311213-47642-45-720.jpg

 

 

aluminium paint was use pre war/early war on some types, eg B5N Kate.  The early scheme look like this.  Note similarity to the early Glen boxing

21-HN-Ac-Kits-Airfix-Nakajima-B5N1-Kate-

 

It really helps if you phrase questions in the header, eg Were the early Yokosuka Glen painted overall silver?  

 

I can't find an image of I-7, the kit box top scheme.    

 

Others may know more.  @Toryu knows more on Japanese paint schemes.     There is a MMP book on the E14Y,  if photos are about, they are likely in there. 

the is a preview of the Glen book here

 

which shows a overall pale scheme,  if this pale grey or aluminium paint I can't make out.

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The box art of the early 'Glen' indeed shows a typical pre-war IJN scheme - aluminium-painted fuselage with a red empennage. As I mentioned I didn't find evidence for an E14Y with these markings. It may be possible that the early scheme was applied before the war, and may have been carried on for a while on subs. I personally don't use paint & marking schemes that are not supported by photo evidence, which doesn't mean they didn't exist.

My best advice would be to scan aviationofjapan.com and arawasi.co.jp via search function. You may also send a message to George from Arawasi, or ask him to start a post on their website. They are answered quite quickly.

Michael

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This chap mentions grey for the Glen - sadly, no photos and no mention of any source for use of that colour other than to say that (paraphrasing here) it was the colour recommended at the same time period, for the Pete and Jake floatplanes (beware, this is in relation to a review of a die-cast model).

https://iwasashougo.com/zero/zero20140608_120.html

 

 

This painting shows a grey-coloured aircraft (mind you, I'm quite leery about this a a guide...).

 

 

Do you think this is silver or grey: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/sww2/e14y/e14y-2.jpg

 

 

Also, for fun, some drawings (from here: https://equimolal57.rssing.com/chan-28205798/all_p8.html).

 

img_0_m?1450268157

 

img_1_m?1450268157

 

img_2_m?1450268157

 

Edited by Blimpyboy
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8 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

This chap mentions grey for the Glen - sadly, no photos and no mention of any source for use of that colour other than to say that (paraphrasing here) it was the colour recommended at the same time period, for the Pete and Jake floatplanes (beware, this is in relation to a review of a die-cast model).

https://iwasashougo.com/zero/zero20140608_120.html

 

 

This painting shows a grey-coloured aircraft (mind you, I'm quite leery about this a a guide...).

 

 

Do you think this is silver or grey: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/sww2/e14y/e14y-2.jpg

 

 

Also, for fun, some drawings (from here: https://equimolal57.rssing.com/chan-28205798/all_p8.html).

 

img_0_m?1450268157

 

img_1_m?1450268157

 

img_2_m?1450268157

 

I did mention grey and the darker second kit, you're correct. 

I can't add photos or I would have, I'm not sure how anyone else manages it?

It does say early on the kit box, however the instructions state it was from September 1942, is that early. 

The mystery deepens.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

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1 hour ago, Doggy said:

I can't add photos or I would have, I'm not sure how anyone else manages it?

They need to be hosted somewhere online,  if you look here 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/15-faqs/

 

there are several threads on how to post photos and various hosting options.  

HTH

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The Hobby 2000 provides two alu dope +red tail schemes, both for 1942

3.png

and two green-grey

2.png

 

 

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I would expect three stages in the colouring.  Prewar silver with black cowlings and red tail, changing to an overall grey (just like the Zeros, Vals etc), then adding green on top after 1942.  I've just been reading about operation I-Go, April 1943, and carrier-borne Zeros were only then having camouflage green added.  Which in itself wouldn't rule out its earlier appearance elsewhere, but definitely onto an overall grey scheme not the older silver/red.

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On 1/9/2021 at 4:44 AM, Toryu said:

The 'Glen' entered service on 17 December 1941 after the IJN had already given up the all-aluminium aircraft colour.


I am intrigued.

Given Toryu’s comment above, is there much evidence of other - operational - Navy aircraft (especially the E9W sub-carried aircraft) carrying on with the Aluminium/red colour into mid/late 1942?

 Off the top of my head, I think possibly some Mavises (another maritime aircraft) and Claudes may have, but that’s about all that springs to mind right now.

 

 

On 1/9/2021 at 5:07 AM, Toryu said:

I personally don't use paint & marking schemes that are not supported by photo evidence, which doesn't mean they didn't exist.


I tend to follow this methodology, too, and struggled to find much evidence of Aluminium Glens (not to say it didn’t happen).

 

 It would be curious to track down the source of the Aluminium/red schemes shown in the old Fujimi kits.

Usually, Japanese references are pretty good with photos, and there may yet be some hoary old publication with some gems in it kicking ‘round somewhere.

 

I’ve scatter-gunned questions about this at some Japanese modelling acquaintances - fingers crossed they can find something helpful.

Edited by Blimpyboy
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Out of the 2 kits I bought this one due to the box art, I thought it looked better. I've got loads of Japanese planes and I tend to experiment a little with different colours.

I've just repainted the top of an old airfix Dinah with xf13, the first colour I used looked too dark.

I have Vallejo MA Japanese paint sets too.

I could be wrong but I think I've seen some silver Japanese planes with green mottling? 

I'm not entirely sure how long bare aluminium would last so close to salt water.

There's a hasegawa ki44 kit that looks silver on Amazon.

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There are many instances of camouflage colours being partially applied over aluminium, and there a loads of websites/forums out there discussing the whys and wherefores behind such schemes!

 

On 1/9/2021 at 5:07 AM, Toryu said:

My best advice would be to scan aviationofjapan.com and arawasi.co.jp via search function. You may also send a message to George from Arawasi, or ask him to start a post on their website.

 

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/

 

http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.com/

 

https://j-aircraft.com/research/mainresearch.htm

 

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php

 

https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.com/c1-japanese-aviation-and-more

 

 

Plus, everyone loves a discussion on Japanese Navy greens...

 

mr02.jpg

 

imgp4937_2.jpg

 

 

Happy painting!

Edited by Blimpyboy
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I believe it was.

If not already seen, this article has no colour information, but it is interesting, nonetheless: https://www.ww2wrecks.com/portfolio/the-ww2-pacific-treasures-of-kwajalein-lagoon-by-dan-farnham-part-2-warrant-officer-nobuo-fujita-the-only-man-who-has-bombed-the-continental-us-and-the-story-of-the-e14y1-floatplanes-found-in-a-shi/

Edited by Blimpyboy
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14 hours ago, Doggy said:

I could be wrong but I think I've seen some silver Japanese planes with green mottling? 

I'm not entirely sure how long bare aluminium would last so close to salt water.

There's a hasegawa ki44 kit that looks silver on Amazon.

OK, you seem rather confused. 

 

Right, first sliver does not mean natural metal.(NMF)   

 

Overall aluminium paint was not uncommon as a paint finish pre war in many air arms,  including naval (think US Navy Silverwings era or FAA

 

The Ki-44 is Imperial Japanese ARMY Air Force.  (IJAAF)

 

Japanese military aviation is either Army or Navy,(IJNAF)  and they were separate, and used different aircraft in general AFAIK.  They also used different paint. (comparison,  the USAAF vs USN in WW2) 

 

The use of green mottle over NMF was used, by the IJAAF,  the Ki-44 was an example, as is the Ki-61

 

I think there are early war examples of IJNAF in aluminium dope with added camouflage, B5N?  but you'd have to check. 

 

If you really want to get to grips with Japanese camo system you need to do some research,  unfortunately I don't know of an available guide in English, (the Donald Thorpe books are long OOP)  but there is a lot of information on Aviation Of Japan blogs, as well as the other.   

If there is a current English language guide on the subject, can someone post up details! 

 

While I can roll off information about various WW2 airforces camo and markings systems from memory,  the Japanese is not one I can offer detailed advice on.   

 

Unless you really want to do some research, but want to build some Japanese models with a degree of accuracy,  you maybe better off asking questions about a specific aircraft. 

 

Final point, Japanese produced kits are more likely to have reasonable colour information, especially more recent ones. 

 

13 hours ago, Doggy said:

That's another point I forgot to mention. I'm sure I read this plane was covered in fabric.

aluminium dope was commonly used by many airforces on fabric, it protects fabric from ultraviolet light damages. 

 

Sorry if the above sounds like a lecture,  just some of your comments seemed very vague and confused,  so I went for establishing basic points, if you do know the above, great, but if not, then I can see a lot of possible confusion.

 

HTH

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The key point seems to be that aircraft build and delivered in the silver finish retained it until the green came in - as an example the Mavis flying boats and indeed some Kates, although this latter case was well in advance of the more general adoption of green tops in mid 1942 . Later aircraft (but still pre-Pacific War) were built with the grey.  This suggests that the Glenns would not have had the silver finish, and possibly not the red tails.  Given the profile art I wonder if what happened is that some units kept the red tail but on grey airframes?  Either that or the manufacturer just got it wrong?  Nice clear photos please - as said above!

 

I've been looking at one source which makes it clear that some of the Claudes in the early Rabaul campaign still had red tails.  One of these is pictured in a profile in the grey, but obviously this can't be offered as confirmation that such a combination actually existed.  Perhaps these Claudes were still in silver?

 

Just to complete the set(?), IJN land-based bombers went straight from silver to the "cloud" camouflage of green and brown.  They don't seem to have been seen in the grey.

 

The IJN did operate a few Ki 51 and Ki 100 Army reconnaissance aircraft,  but these are indeed exceptions.  There were also some Peggy torpedo bombers late on, but I suspect these were for Army units.  The Bu 131 Jungmeister was used by both forces as the Cherry, but I can't remember which came first.

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Francillon's Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War (Putnam) has just one photo of the Glen (p. 452).  It's the E14Y1 protoype and is in a light colour with a black cowling.  No red tail, in fact no markings other than national insignia.  It's a contrasty photo and  the overall colour could be silver or light grey.  Some of the reflections around the canopy suggest to me silver but I wouldn't fight anyone over it.  BTW the black is confined to the cowling as in Option 1 in JWM's post: no curve back over the fuselage to the windscreen as per option 2.

 

NB Thr E14Y1 prototype was completed in 1939, back in the silver and red era.

Edited by Seahawk
Addition of word "prototype" to last sentence to avoid confusion.
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2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Francillon's Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War (Putnam) has just one photo of the Glen (p. 452).  It's the E14Y1 protoype and is in a light colour with a black cowling.  No red tail, in fact no markings other than national insignia.  It's a contrasty photo and  the overall colour could be silver or light grey.  Some of the reflections around the canopy suggest to me silver but I wouldn't fight anyone over it.  BTW the black is confined to the cowling as in Option 1 in JWM's post: no curve back over the fuselage to the windscreen as per option 2.

 

NB Thr E14Y1 was completed in 1939, back in the silver and red era.

This machine is rather presented as overall orange-yellow, as for prototype. 

133074-11104-pristine.jpg

sometimes iterpreted ailver, though

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShwM01wKhi2fYGeaztEf9

 

I have found a photo of a production Glen in a light colour overall which could be the IJN light grey perhaps:

1513798458_odin-iz-pervyh-seriynyh-gidro

 

Regarding the Oregon bombing from I-25 submarine, some I think 20 years ago (?) in a Czech modeler journal I saw a profile with hastily overpainted hinomarus as said to be done during the Oregon bombing. I believe that it was based on the talks with pilot N.Fujita, who was several time visitig US after the war... I did it in my Glen...

Regards

J-W

 

P.S {added as EDIT} I have found this low-visibility profile for machine from I-15 few minutes after original post, it is here:

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/1049/pics/65_1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by JWM
added PS
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On 1/10/2021 at 1:21 PM, Troy Smith said:

OK, you seem rather confused. 

 

Right, first sliver does not mean natural metal.(NMF)   

 

Overall aluminium paint was not uncommon as a paint finish pre war in many air arms,  including naval (think US Navy Silverwings era or FAA

 

The Ki-44 is Imperial Japanese ARMY Air Force.  (IJAAF)

 

Japanese military aviation is either Army or Navy,(IJNAF)  and they were separate, and used different aircraft in general AFAIK.  They also used different paint. (comparison,  the USAAF vs USN in WW2) 

 

The use of green mottle over NMF was used, by the IJAAF,  the Ki-44 was an example, as is the Ki-61

 

I think there are early war examples of IJNAF in aluminium dope with added camouflage, B5N?  but you'd have to check. 

 

If you really want to get to grips with Japanese camo system you need to do some research,  unfortunately I don't know of an available guide in English, (the Donald Thorpe books are long OOP)  but there is a lot of information on Aviation Of Japan blogs, as well as the other.   

If there is a current English language guide on the subject, can someone post up details! 

 

While I can roll off information about various WW2 airforces camo and markings systems from memory,  the Japanese is not one I can offer detailed advice on.   

 

Unless you really want to do some research, but want to build some Japanese models with a degree of accuracy,  you maybe better off asking questions about a specific aircraft. 

 

Final point, Japanese produced kits are more likely to have reasonable colour information, especially more recent ones. 

 

aluminium dope was commonly used by many airforces on fabric, it protects fabric from ultraviolet light damages. 

 

Sorry if the above sounds like a lecture,  just some of your comments seemed very vague and confused,  so I went for establishing basic points, if you do know the above, great, but if not, then I can see a lot of possible confusion.

 

HTH

Thanks. I am confused and you've helped a great deal.

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15 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Thr E14Y1 was completed in 1939, back in the silver and red era.

 

I guess too, that older-era schemes on some ship-based aircraft might have been dependent on the parent ship's/submarine's sailing date, which in some instances could pre-date a change in colour orders. I reckon there was no at-sea repainting on a submarine, even if subs were radioed new aircraft coloration information (unlikely, in my view).

 

Do you think it possible then, that some early aircraft could have been Alu/red, but then immediately replaced upon return to port with camouflaged aircraft?

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1 hour ago, Blimpyboy said:

 

I guess too, that older-era schemes on some ship-based aircraft might have been dependent on the parent ship's/submarine's sailing date, which in some instances could pre-date a change in colour orders. I reckon there was no at-sea repainting on a submarine, even if subs were radioed new aircraft coloration information (unlikely, in my view).

 

Do you think it possible then, that some early aircraft could have been Alu/red, but then immediately replaced upon return to port with camouflaged aircraft?

I should have said "the E14Y1 prototype was completed in 1939".  I don't know when production aircraft appeared, though Francillon says it made its operational debut on 17 December 1941 when one did a dawn damage assessment flight over Pearl Harbor.   I judge it likely (but do not know) that early production aircraft were in silver/red.  Like you, I judge there was no chance of repainting an E14Y inside the tube that served as a hangar on the Japanese aircraft-carrying submarines.

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According to the excellent 2012 MMP book, "Kugisho E14Y Glen, The aircraft that bombed America:"

 

+ "Glen" entered production in 1940, but was not fully deployed aboard submarines until the second half of 1942.

+ Design was by the 1st Naval Aircraft Technology Arsenal at Yokosuka (thus the "Y" in the short designation), aka "Kugisho."

+ Production was by Watanabe at Zasshonokuma, totaling 126 machines.

+ Kugisho-built prototypes were finished in overall silver, with a black cowl.

+ Watanabe-built prototypes were were used to develop an enlarged vertical tail and revised cowl. Some of these appear to have been finished in yellow-orange, with a black cowl.

+ Pre-production trials aircraft, and early production machines were finished in overall silver, with a black cowl. Service aircraft added red tails.

+ The aircraft had fabric-covered flying surfaces and rear fuselage; metal forward fuselage, floats, and other bits (by this time, the Japanese had developed matching silver paints for these different materials).

+ By the time E14Y's were deployed in 1942, the finish had changed to dark green over light gray. An apparent exception (presumably during an earlier trials period?) was the silver one on submarine "I-7" covered by "Hobby 2000."

+ All four of the "Hobby 2000" markings options appear to be taken directly from profiles in this book.

+ My bad phone photo below - of rough original photos in the book - shows: yellow-orange Watanabe prototype on top (note the telltale white surround to the hinomaru); silver trials aircraft lurking behind an E7K "Alf" in the middle photo; and a profile of the latter at the bottom.

 

I can't recommend this book highly enough. Very comprehensive including detailed history, excellent drawings, full interior details, and info on predecessor and successor aircraft.

 

2-A923-EE9-5320-4126-A7-C8-A57-C3-C525-F

 

 

 

Edited by MDriskill
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