USAF F-4 SEA camo - National Insignia w/wo blue bars outline

[Sierra Mike Sierra]

Hi all in the New Year!

I need some help of the experts here regarding USAF national insignias ("roundels") on F-4s in SEA camo. Usually they seem to have blue bars on the outline. Now I have been confronted with the AeroMaster 48-472 1/48 decal sheet Phantoms over Vietnam Part 2 where the national insignia does not have the blue bars.

 

 

 

I have done a quick (shallow) research and only found that on early F-15s the national insignia was applied without the blue bars outline. But all images I have of Vietnam era F-4s the blue bars have been applied, although some pictures are a bit blurred and I am not sure whether or not the blue bar outline is there.

 

Does anybody know the rules (if any) for national insignia on USAF SEA camo F-4s in Vietnam? Or in other words: shall I trust the Aero Master decals?

 

  vs   
 

 

Cheers 

Stefan

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Sierra Mike Sierra

[iainpeden]

I believe (but happy to be corrected) that this was a McDonnell Douglas thing; the guidelines included outer blue lines all round but McAir used it as a sort of signature to leave the outer bars unlined.. However, why it didn't apply to the USN a/c or all the SEA schemes coming out of the St Louis works - pass.

[Sierra Mike Sierra]

Thanks Iain! So it seems a viable theory could be that factory new aircraft coming out of MDD did not have blue bars, while insignia applied later by the USAF's paint masters did.

[vppelt68]

2 hours ago, iainpeden said:

I believe (but happy to be corrected) that this was a McDonnell Douglas thing; the guidelines included outer blue lines all round but McAir used it as a sort of signature to leave the outer bars unlined.. However, why it didn't apply to the USN a/c or all the SEA schemes coming out of the St Louis works - pass.

Maybe because USN aircraft were "white" and thus needed the lining on the bars, when the USAF aircraft camo made the white bars stand out on their own. . Just a guess! V-P

[Giorgio N]

I've seen many pictures of USAF Phantoms in Vietnam and honestly only in a very few I've seen insignia that seemed to lack the blue bars. One of them is 66-8775 included in the sheet, although I only have a B/W picture of this.

I don't have pictures of the second aircraft but pictures of other aircraft in the same unit with very close serial numbers all ckearly show the blue bars

[Ben Brown]

It was a McDonnell factory "thing" on the F-4D & E and early F-15, like North American using a different style for the serial numbers and buzz numbers on the F-86 and F-100. McDonnell used the borderless insignia on the three topside positions and the normal bordered one for the underside of the wing. They also used a slightly different camouflage pattern than was specified in the T.O. The giveaways for the factory paint, in addition to the borderless insignia, are the tan patch going up to the national insignia on the port side of the fuselage and the lower edge of the green paint on the nose going down across the ACS intake to touch the light grey paint. The T.O. has the bottom edge of the green passing above the ACS vent and going to the radome. You probably won't see the borderless insignia on F-4Cs, since they left the factory in grey/white camouflage. Just a guess (because I'm too lazy to look 😄), but RF-4Cs that were factory camouflaged probably had the borderless insignia, too, because production was still going on as they transitioned from grey/white to SEA camouflage. 

 

Ben

[Finn]

A lot of photos mainly F-4cs in Vietnam, including 704. here:

 

http://aircraft-in-focus.com/mcdonnell-douglas-f-4-phantom-ii/#more-2032

 

Jari

[Sierra Mike Sierra]

2 hours ago, Finn said:

A lot of photos mainly F-4cs in Vietnam, including 704. here:

 

http://aircraft-in-focus.com/mcdonnell-douglas-f-4-phantom-ii/#more-2032

 

Jari

Thanks a lot! Truly a valuable source.

[Slater]

Some of the early F-15 prototypes used the "star and bar" without the blue border as an experiment in low visibility. Along with the sky blue paint schemes.

[bobmig]

The last St. Louis-built F-4 also had the "blueless-bar" insignia. It's one of the subjects on out "Milestone Phantoms" decal sheet.

http://iliad-design.com/decals/48milestones.html

[iainpeden]

15 hours ago, bobmig said:

The last St. Louis-built F-4 also had the "blueless-bar" insignia. It's one of the subjects on out "Milestone Phantoms" decal sheet.

http://iliad-design.com/decals/48milestones.html

Number 5057, 78-0744. delivered to the South Korean Air Force in a compass gray scheme. The white markings on the nose were on the starboard side only.

[bobmig]

9 hours ago, iainpeden said:

Number 5057, 78-0744. delivered to the South Korean Air Force in a compass gray scheme. The white markings on the nose were on the starboard side only.

Yup!... here are photos of both sides

http://www.iliad-design.com/5057.html

[RidgeRunner]

A very intereesting thread. I didnt know this.  As a comment on the original question, the old adage remains true - check your references (and that doesn't mean profiles, which are often wrong).

 

Martin