Sherman II - Dragon and Asuka - 1/35

[Kingsman]

BTW there's also another Sherman site very worth a look as well as Minutia.  http://www.theshermantank.com/

[Cerberus]

1 hour ago, Das Abteilung said:

Or it might be that because of the way Dragon mix and match sprues you may just have 2 barrels.

 

 Probably this, I very much doubt that Dragon put the flare on their barrels, and as you say neither of them look to have a flared end, and Dragon are notorious for part duplication and extra sprues.

[Nenad Ilijic]

@Das Abteilung @Cerberus One of the barrels is actually slightly flared! But it is so subtle it is hardly visible. And on the photos I posted it is not visible at all because of the angle photos were taken.

They are both mentioned in the instructions as optional and non is blocked out blue.

 

If they are two pieces, or bent, I usually replace them with metal ones, but these are quite straight.

[Kingsman]

The flare was hardly noticeable anyway.  You could actually use either from what I've seen but even on early tanks the straight taper was most common.

[Cerberus]

 

A quick online search threw up one picture of an aftermarket barrel that seems to show the flared end, this is a LionMarc barrel (LM10011) picture is from Scalemates.

 

 Matt

[Nenad Ilijic]

On 1/23/2021 at 10:39 AM, Cerberus said:

 

A quick online search threw up one picture of an aftermarket barrel that seems to show the flared end, this is a LionMarc barrel (LM10011) picture is from Scalemates.

 

 Matt

Thank you Matt. Flare is definitely more visible on this once compared to the Dragon's barrel.

[Retired Bob]

On 23/01/2021 at 09:39, Cerberus said:

A quick online search threw up one picture of an aftermarket barrel that seems to show the flared end, this is a LionMarc barrel (LM10011) picture is from Scalemates.

I have several of those barrels  LionMarc make them especially for Tasca/Asuka early Sherman kits. 

[Nenad Ilijic]

Hi guys,

 

Here's an update from this weekend. First of all, I decided which tank I am building. It will be 3rd Hussars 'B' sqd one, T-144975 (or T-144976, not sure, I'll play around with a photo a little bit more to figure out).

 

 

Finished upper hull, turret and PE fenders. Only changes I made are turret lifting rings and added styrene strip between turret and stowage bin. The tank I am building has a little bit different 'flat' turret lifting rings. Also, I am quite sure that turret stowage bins were not attached to the turret directly and that there is a piece of metal in between.

 

I'll probably attach only one cupola flap (one with the periscope). The other one was usually removed and sometimes used as additional armor, or just attached somewhere (ie on one of the fenders). There's noting inside the turret so I hope the interior will not be visible

 

 

I used straight barrel. Looking at the photos, I was able to identify only one Sherman II with flared barrel. One I am building is certainly with a straight one.

I used triangular grouser covers.

 

Now, I am not sure about some of the welding marks. As you can see here:

 

 

What's this one I marked as '1'? Should it be there at all? Also '2' and '3'? Marked with '4' are flat turret lifting rings.

 

Building PE fenders was a bit painful. I guess that if you know how to solder, It would be easier, but having no idea how to do that, I used CA to glue them. Not sure yet about the result. We will have to wait for the primer. As I mentioned earlier, they were damaged already, so I just didn't try to fix it and kept all of the dents.

 

 

Zap-a-gap CA glue was quite useful here, because it fills all the gaps and it is really easy to sand.

 

I am not sure about this gap. Should it be here? Not sure, but looking at the photos, it looks to me that sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.

 

 

Also, not sure about this perforations. I filled them with CA anyway. Or at least I think I did. We will see once I prime them.

 

 

In the meantime, Asuka M2 set arrived. MiniArt stowage set as well. This was fast, it took only one week. Like we are not living in the COVID world. I am quite surprised 

 

 

I figured out that I don't have some of the decals that I will need, so I ordered Archer Fine Transfers generic decals. I had to order them from USA, so, probably, will have to wait quite some time

 

In the meantime, I'll have to figure out the paint and markings. Will come back soon with a post regarding this.

 

Cheers,

Nenad

 

[Cerberus]

1 hour ago, Nenad Ilijic said:

Now, I am not sure about some of the welding marks. As you can see here:

 

 1. There is a square casting mark around the pistol port on these turrets, it varies greatly on how visible it is, so its up to you whether you show it or not, the problem with these kinda casting marks is that they can very often just look like modelling construction errors when seen in 1/35th scale, so personal choice really as to whether you add them, or leave them on the kit parts.

 2. Depends on whether you have high bustle or low bustle turret I think, but this one looks to be the correct casting seem line.

 3. Blend this one in and make it less pronounced.

 4. There is also a a square casting mark around the turret lift rings, but the same applies as in point no1 above, the lifting rings are not quite the right shape, they should be more rounded n chunky, but those are not too bad tbh.

 

 Have a look at some early Sherman turrets on Sherman Shadock http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/index.html and you will see what things should look like.

 

 The gap on the side skirts I'm not so sure about yet, will have a look see on that one.

 

 Matt

Edited January 24, 2021 by Cerberus
Because I'm stupid and can't read

[Cerberus]

1 hour ago, Retired Bob said:

I have several of those barrels  LionMarc make them especially for Tasca/Asuka early Sherman kits. 

 I didn't know that, handy to know thank you

[Kingsman]

The early side skirts fitted using individual clips under the sponsons rather than to the later and more familiar strips along the hull side.  So I believe the gaps can be correct.  You can see it in some photos.  Each of the little lumps under the sponson represents a clip.  There were, however, short flanges on the front and rear fenders.  This picture from Minutia of an early PSC A1 supplied to Canada shows the clips and flanges well.  They are rarely seen in photos.  It also shows some of the turret detail you asked about.  Ignore the non-standard tool stowage revised by Canada.

 

HOWEVER, Dragon have goofed the actual side skirts.  They've put in the standard later-pattern ones from other kits without realising that the early ones only had bolts on the front and rear sections where they fitted to the fender flanges.  The centre sections that fitted to the clips had no bolt or rivet heads.  The clips were welded to the back.  See photo below, which also shows a gap.  Hard but not impossible to correct on brass: you'll need to file the rivet/bolt head detail off where the stowage won't hide it.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Das Abteilung
addition

[Nenad Ilijic]

@Cerberus, @Das Abteilung thank you!

 

@Das Abteilung I was able to file the bolt heads from the middle sections of the side skirts.

 

 

Not sure about this holes. I guess I should close them?

 

Looking at photos, it's definitely only the front and rear piece that has bolts. Good catch!

 

Best,

Nenad

[Kingsman]

I believe the slots are again only appropriate to later patterns.  If memory serves they were found on sets that were adjustable to fit all/any type of Sherman.  But certainly not found in your period.

 

If modelling Shermans was easy it would be called football.......

[Nenad Ilijic]

Hi guys,

 

Here's some progress I made this week.

 

 

Finally I'm done with PE sand shields. Primed everything with Mr. Finishing Surfacer and painted everything that will be hard to reach once sand shields are attached. I used Mr.Color C38 Olive Drab for a base color. I prefer lacquers for the base paint, because you can do anything to them without even protecting them. Maybe I'll do one more pass on the lower hull sides.

 

 

Tools are a bit meh, but those PE straps are really nice! Do you guys know, should they be linen or leather? Or something else?

 

 

Still able to keep those DS tracks under control. They didn't break, and didn't start to peel... yet. Placing them is the most critical moment I would say, because paint starts to crack when they are flexing a lot. But we'll see, I'll try to be gentle.

 

And finally, PE sand shields.

 

 

I closed all of the perforations.

 

I'll put together drivetrain and attach sand shields over the weekend and hopefully give it a base coat of Olive Drab.

 

I'll have to decide soon what will be the desert paint. Do you guys happen to know which paint was applied on 3rd Hussars tanks before El Alamein battle? It seams that most of them, including the one I am building, were painted in plain, light coloured paint, most probable choices being Light Stone and Desert Pink. I was thinking that they were Light Stone at first, but then after digging a bit, I am not so sure. Some sources claim that it was Desert Pink. Is there a consensus about this?

 

Cheers,

Nenad

[diablo rsv]

I have been following this thread with great interest Nenad as it is my intention to build a Mk.II sometime in the near future, I just cant find the Asuka kit at the moment. Can I ask where you found the one you have ordered?

You are making great work of this Dragon one it's beginning to look really good. 

Regarding the colours, my understanding is that the Desert Pink was introduced from 6th October 1942 so that by the time of the start of the battle on the 23rd October many vehicles would still be in their original Light Stone colour. Not much help I know and it looks as though you have been doing some thorough research but I have no idea how you could find out which vehicles carried the new scheme. I guess it would depend on when they received there equipment and whether they had time to carry out the new painting directive.

Wayne   

[Nenad Ilijic]

Hi Wayne,

 

I bought it on an eBay auction from this seller: https://www.ebay.com/sch/simonchristopherlaw06/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

 

There were another one on auction at the same time from another seller, but it looks like it's gone. Unfortunately, it seems that there are no listings at the moment, but I guess that they appear from time to time.

 

Not sure if Asuka can be found these days in any regular online store, at least in Europe. I was not able to find it in stores from which I am usually buying.

 

Regarding paint, I was not able to find any conclusive information for 3rd Hussars. However, I was able to find following for the 9th Lancers:

1. They started receiving their Shermans on September 10th and the regiment was brought to full strength on September 26th.
2. Sappers arrived on October 10th and painted disruptive camouflage on all Shermans. They finished painting on October 14th.

Now, it is not exactly stated is it only the dark disruptive camouflage that was painted by sappers, or base sandy paint as well. If both were painted by sappers, there is a chance that base paint was desert pink. If base paint was painted at depot however, it happened before September 26th and it is probably Light Stone. So it may be both. And of course, there is always a chance that reality didn't follow administration.

 

In addition, I am not sure weather other regiments received same treatment and weather timeline was similar (I think that I saw somewhere though that 24AB tanks were painted in a similar timeframe). But it looks like that 3rd Hussars tanks never received dark disruptive camouflage.

 

I would say that it is much higher chance that base paint was light stone, but then again, I read in several sources (Including Codename Swallow) that they were painted desert pink.

 

Cheers,

Nenad

 

[diablo rsv]

I cant find any in the retailers so as you say I will have to keep an eye on eBay.

I would say that whichever way you go with the paint it would be difficult to say it was right or wrong. If the 3rd Hussars tanks didn't get the disruptive camouflage then what did the sappers apply assuming they were already in Light Stone? Maybe the did apply the pink and for whatever reason left off the disruptive.

Wayne

[JackG]

I could be wrong, but wouldn't the desert workshops paint the vehicles, at least the base light colour before delivering them to the units?

 

Codename Swallow book has a paragraph dedicated to the 3rd king's Own Hussars.  Some of their sources state the tanks arrived too late to apply a second colour, but then there is apparently an after battle photo that clearly shows evidence of an applied disruptive scheme. 

In another book The New Breed co-authored by Mike Starmer, it states contrary to some records, photo evidence shows a simple pattern was applied to some tanks - but only to the lower hull and sand shields.   Neither book assign a specific paint for the base vehicle colour, but they do note that the background of the divisional unit serial number as red, as opposed to green as used by the brigade.  Another disabled Sherman photo also provides proofs that the fern symbol was applied, and not added later as a 'battle honour'.

 

 

There is a facebook group claiming this  Sherman belongs to 3rd Hussar's:

https://www.facebook.com/The-Queens-Royal-Hussars-Museum-1087446214620464/photos/c-squadron-3rd-kings-own-hussars-m4-sherman-el-alamein-late-october-1942/2742391405792595

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Cerberus]

16 minutes ago, diablo rsv said:

I cant find any in the retailers so as you say I will have to keep an eye on eBay.

 

 Try Model Hobbies https://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/ they have some Asuka kits in stock, I bought the Asuka Firefly Composite Hull kit from them a few days ago, might start it soon, you can also try the Bovington Tank Museum online shop https://tankmuseumshop.org/ which also has some Asuka kits I think

 

 Matt

[diablo rsv]

Thanks Matt @Cerberus, they have a few but not the British Sherman II.

Wayne

[Cerberus]

3 minutes ago, diablo rsv said:

they have a few but not the British ShermanII.

 

 Have look round ebay, but don't pay any silly prices, they are very good kits, but they are not worth silly money, if still no luck then try sending an email to Model Hobbies asking if they can get the kit for you, I've done this in the past with Tasca/Asuka kits and they got me the kit within a couple of weeks, worth a try if you badly want that particular kit.

 

 Matt

 

 ps I have no affiliation with Model Hobbies, they have just been good at sourcing kits for me in the past.

[Nenad Ilijic]

On 1/30/2021 at 4:14 PM, JackG said:

I could be wrong, but wouldn't the desert workshops paint the vehicles, at least the base light colour before delivering them to the units?

 

Codename Swallow book has a paragraph dedicated to the 3rd king's Own Hussars.  Some of their sources state the tanks arrived too late to apply a second colour, but then there is apparently an after battle photo that clearly shows evidence of an applied disruptive scheme. 

In another book The New Breed co-authored by Mike Starmer, it states contrary to some records, photo evidence shows a simple pattern was applied to some tanks - but only to the lower hull and sand shields.   Neither book assign a specific paint for the base vehicle colour, but they do note that the background of the divisional unit serial number as red, as opposed to green as used by the brigade.  Another disabled Sherman photo also provides proofs that the fern symbol was applied, and not added later as a 'battle honour'.

 

 

There is a facebook group claiming this  Sherman belongs to 3rd Hussar's:

https://www.facebook.com/The-Queens-Royal-Hussars-Museum-1087446214620464/photos/c-squadron-3rd-kings-own-hussars-m4-sherman-el-alamein-late-october-1942/2742391405792595

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

Hi Jack,

 

There is mention on Page D of Code Swallow book about the traces of disruptive camouflage on some 3rd Hussar's tanks, stating that this contradicts most accounts that describe 3rd Hussar's tanks as being Desert Pink.

 

Just as you mentioned, there are photos of 3rd Hussar's tanks with traces of disruptive camouflage. I've seen at least one, the destroyed tank with blown off turret. Maybe sappers were called off just after starting the job, similar to what happened while they were applying disruptive camouflage on Crusaders of Sqd A, 9th Lancers.

 

So unless something new comes up, I'll just have to flip a coin 

 

Fern symbol is another story I will have to figure out. There are photos of tanks with and without it. For example, destroyed tank mention above definitely has it on the right sand shield. However, this tank, which also belongs to 3rd Hussars has sqd symbol with a call sign on the right fender instead.

 

 

This tank might be the one I am building, photographed from another angle.

 

 

There is also a photo of the one from 'C' sqd without any symbol on the right fender (the 3rd Hussar's tanks that Dragon included markings for).

 

Maybe fern symbol was applied on repaired thanks after they returned to 3rd Hussars or something like that? Anyway, it seems that markings were quite inconsistent.

 

Cheers,

Nenad

 

[Nenad Ilijic]

19 hours ago, Cerberus said:

 

 Try Model Hobbies https://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/ they have some Asuka kits in stock, I bought the Asuka Firefly Composite Hull kit from them a few days ago, might start it soon, you can also try the Bovington Tank Museum online shop https://tankmuseumshop.org/ which also has some Asuka kits I think

 

 Matt

 

Thanks for pointing out. Just bought Sherman III one from Bovington Tank Museum online shop.

It seems that this Sherman thing is some disorder I developed. Dangerous stuff. Please stop me before my wife kills me 

 

Cheers,

Nenad

[Bullbasket]

1 hour ago, Nenad Ilijic said:

It seems that this Sherman thing is some disorder I developed. Dangerous stuff. Please stop me before my wife kills me 

Too late. It's terminal!

 

John.

[Nenad Ilijic]

Hi guys,

 

I was on a vacation out of town for a week so not much had been done. 

 

Suspension completed and painted. Had some trouble sanding the joints as hey were hard to reach once suspension was attached. I'll do it differently next time, I'll fully assemble suspension first and then attach it to the hull.

 

 

I decided to go with Light Stone for desert camouflage. Timeline wise, it makes more sense. Also, got some hints from @Mike Starmer. Thank you Mike!

 

Here's with some MRP Light Stone applied. I painted just the areas that were easy to reach in real life. 3H reference photos are confirming that lower hull and suspension were painted Light Stone, but just sparingly, some areas being left OD.

 

 

Time to attach the tracks. Those DS tracks are quite stiff. Had to use some glue to attach them to return rollers.

 

 

Still not satisfied with the result, especially how tracks are going around sprockets and idles wheels, but fortunately, big piece of them will be covered by sand shields anyway.

 

 

I'll build this 3H tank as it looked like just before the El Alamain battle. So there will be not much tear and wear. I left rubber pads and rubber rims mostly new (even left a bit of a seam line on a rubber rim). My 9L Asuka build will be a bit more beaten up, so I'll use Panda tracks for that build.

 

In the meantime, my Asuka package arrived!

 

 

I'll probably start it soon and will use this same WiP for that build. I will just have to rename the topic. It will be interesting to compare it with Dragon.

 

Cheers,

Nenad