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RAAF Spitfire Mk.Vc white tail - plus new Airfix Mk.Vc


Graham Boak

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The expected arrival of the new Airfix kit had me digging out the older tooling, which after considerable rework some years back had ended up reasonably decent, but unpainted.  A quick look at the instruction sheet suggested a single uppersurface green rather than the expected green/brown, but OK, slap a first coat on using WEM Colourcoats RAAF Light Green (which isn't particularly lighter than the Dark Green).  Then I looked in the Kookaburra RAAF Camouflage books, which gave me lots of green/brown ones of the unit but..  All looking very dark but two colours not one.

 

First Question: is single dark green a genuine option for a Mk.Vc?

 

Second question:  What colour is Foliage Green?  

 

I won't reiterate all the various suggestions I've seen, other than ruling out the sickly USAF Europe 1 Medium Green seen on at least two warbirds.

 

Third question: with Spitfires specifically in mind (at the moment), which of the WEM Colourcoats is considered both reliable and  desirable?  I specifically say WEM because they are the ones I've got.  I don't know whether Jamie has altered any of them for Sovereign so am being careful here.  I don't think that he has, but if so then I see a new order coming on.

 

I have got the new Airfix kit now and like it a lot. The extraneous undercarriage supports can be easily cut off and the DH spinner is too fat, but I have a spare from the Sword kit.  The Airfix DH prop blades seems slightly broader than the Sword so I see myself having a little bit of effort combining the set.  I am uncertain about the "inner shell" approach to the interior but suspect it will not matter in the end.  I hadn't realised that the SAAF unit carried four cannon in the desert, so that's my favoured choice at the moment.

 

It appears to be a good representation of an mid-production Mk.Vc.  It lacks the extra bulges on top of the wing seen on early production so these will have to be added for the more distinctively coloured Malta ones of mid 1942, and presumably the earlier Desert ones too.  I don't know when these were removed, but believe the kit is right for the two examples offered by the kit transfers.  The kit lacks the thinner cannon bulges and the extended aileron horn balance of later production ones, such as those seen in SEAC, but again I don't have dates/serials for the introduction of these mods.  Besides, the Sword kit has these anyway - just as well as Airfix's distinctive way of tackling the tailplane fit makes x-kitting difficult.

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AFAIK the single dark green is not an option. The current thinking is that the early spitfires supplied to Australia was only minimally repainted, i.e. middle stone overpainted with foliage green. 

 

Foliage green is an elusive question. My reference was the old Humbrol authentic color with is a green that almost look like the US Medium green FS 24092 (but RAAF didn't use FS numbers, they are much later). Its a much richer green that the RAF Dark green with a slightly bluish streak.

 

Can't help you with WEM, as I use Xtracolor. I note, however, that they normally are praised, so perhaps one day.

 

I'm almost at an end with my RAAF Spitfires, so will probably not buy the Airfix, but I wish it had been there when I started with the Sword kits. They did not turn out that great, so the latest Spits starts as Eduard IX and get my own shorter Merlin nose.

 

Good luck with it; I hope to see the result in the RFI section, when finished.

 

Cheers

 

/Finn

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When I did my 1/48 Airfix Vb to Vc conversion last year I went for the Dark Earth, Foliage Green (over Middle Stone) and an Azure Blue underside typical for an early Vc delivery and supported by the photographic evidence. Looking at the Spartan paint chart and doing a lot of reading I settled on the Gunze range H72 Dark Earth, H302 FS34092 Green (another vote for that mentioned by @FinnAndersen) with underside Gunze C370 Azure Blue lightened with a bit of white. I was very happy with the result. Sorry not Colourcoats but a close match to FS*4092 should give a pleasing result. Hopefully this will lead you in the right direction.

 

 

Spitfire_A58-84_Construction_100

 

The full build is here and includes the DK decal sheet with some interesting alternate Vc schemes and some input from Peter Malone on these RAAF Vc colours. A Mk. VIII A58-513 is shown with a solid foliage green upper. 

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks Ray, and that is very much what I would use for an earlier example.  However the white tails are later so this example has had lots of time to be repainted in other ways. The photos from this unit have very little contrast which would suggest one of the later RAAF browns such as Earth Brown or Dark Earth rather than the original Mid Stone.

 

The Colourcoats RAAF Sky Blue is certainly a lot lighter than Azure Blue, and perhaps a little too light even for RAF Sky Blue.  (OK, arguable.)  However it has been painted over the top of Medium Sea Grey, so perhaps isn't showing to its best yet.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

However the white tails are later so this example has had lots of time to be repainted in other ways. 

 

And not, just add the white tail. Examples with the camouflage and just white tail added like A58-185 here :

 

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Spitfire-A58-185a/Spitfire_A58_185_79_Squadron_Photo_via_Gordon_Birkett

 

And A58-141 here:

 

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/SPITFIRE/P029039

 

And A58-165 here:

 

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/SPITFIRE/P029012

 

And this gem of a colour film previously posted, yes a P-40 and bare metal Spits but does show what could happen in terms of colours.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980428-natural-metal-raaf-spitfire-color-period-footage-p40/

 

Going through ADF serials, you will find it difficult to find a white tail not applied to a previous weathered disruption scheme.

 

Need @Magpie22 Peter Malone to come in.

 

Ray

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The photos from this unit have very little contrast which would suggest one of the later RAAF browns such as Earth Brown or Dark Earth rather than the original Mid Stone.

I believe Ray means that the Mid Stone was overpainted with Foliage Green, so that would explain that low contrast.

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I'm not in any doubt that FG/DE(orEB) over AB was common on 79 Sq, but does that rule out Airfix's scheme?  I'm tending towards thinking so, but...

 

I'm also familiar with the suggestion that Foliage Green came from USAAF Medium Green, but as this seems to be based on the assumption that US deliveries eg Hudsons were painted in Medium Green rather than a better match for RAF Dark Green.  Given more recent understanding of US-equivalent/substitute paints, this seems unlikely to me.  I don't recall the subject arising with US deliveries (inc Hudsons) to the UK so why Australia?

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23 minutes ago, alt-92 said:
1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

than the original Mid Stone.

I believe Ray means that the Mid Stone was overpainted with Foliage Green, so that would explain that low contrast.

Yes this is correct mid stone as supplied overpainted with Foliage Green. There are also examples with the mid stone left as is. Also note the RAF Dark Earth, as supplied, was also repainted with the local earth in later examples. 

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49 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I'm not in any doubt that FG/DE(orEB) over AB was common on 79 Sq, but does that rule out Airfix's scheme?  I'm tending towards thinking so, but...

 

Hi Graham,

 

In terms of the colours, I found the 2001 article by Gary Byk and Peter Malone in Hyperscale useful.  http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/foliagegreenrefgb_1.htm I do not know if there is any more up to date information that may of changed the position on this and why I hope Peter Malone swings by.

 

Out of interest, what is the aircraft serial number for the Airfix scheme?

 

Ray

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I've done two Spitfires with white tails: UP-X A58-169 in Foliage Green, Dark Earth and Azure blue and UP-G A58-178 in Foliage Green, Dark Earth and Azure blue with a Sky blue lower cowling, as they had replaced the Vokes filter; I believe that it's mentioned in the old Kookaburra book.

 

A58-169 was done as per Sword instructions and A58-178 per Ventura V7208 instructions.

 

/Finn

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1 hour ago, Ray_W said:

Out of interest, what is the aircraft serial number for the Airfix scheme?

 

It doesn't give one, just an indecipherable scrabble on the starboard side ahead of the white.  Nothing on the port side, nothing on either side on the transfer sheet.  The aircraft is UP.T with the artwork of a lady(?) under the windscreen.  The lack of any serial on the fuselage could be suggesting an overall repaint - perhaps.  or just a lack of research?   I wonder if it comes from the old Kookaburra profile of RAAF Spitfire Mk.Vs?  if so, I have it but can't find it just now.  Clearly a single uppersurface of FG was not standard for fighters at this time even in New Guinea: they should have been Aluminium but retention of an older scheme was permitted.  Repainting into this scheme for bombers etc. wasn't, but would anyone have cared on a single example?  Just to stress, this is the older Airfix kit not the new one. 

 

As for the suggested variation in Foliage Green: the description of it being greener and a little bluer than RAF Dark Green, partway to RAF Dark Sea Green, rather points at Good Old Humbrol 30, doesn't it?  In the HS text, when the modeller compared RAF Dark Green to the example from a Wirraway, I wonder if he used H30 or the original Authentic RAF Dark Green which was darker and more olive - much more accurate.   Airfix suggest H149 for the colour - have to look to see if I've got that to compare.  However if some variation was common then the Colourcoats Dark Green or Light Green would do, there being very little difference between them.

 

I must admit to a distaste for the shallow argument: there was variation, we don't know what the real colour was, therefore we can use anything we like and no-one can say we're wrong.  Not because anyone could argue with whatever I use, my models stay in the model room/loft and only I ever see them.  Sorry Finn, but honestly you wouldn't be missing much.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The aircraft is UP.T with the artwork of a lady(?) under the windscreen. 

 

A58-137

 

From ADF Serials:

 

Arrived in Australia on SS Tijuca 13/04/43. Rec 1AD ex UK 15/04/43.Issued 79Sqn RAAF ex 1AD 29/05/43. Coded UP-T, Aircraft of F/Lt David Hopton. Named "Down with Everything" and had a painted picture of a nude girl with her pants down. Accident 28/11/43 when belly tank failed to separate cleanly, damaging rear part of fuselage. Pilot; F/Lt David H Hopton Serv#407074 not injured. Repaired. Rec 6AD ex 79Sqn RAAF 16/06/44. Rec 85Sqn RAAF ex 6AD 09/10/44. Coded SH-W in Natural Metal. Accident 1656hrs 26/02/45 when aircraft collided with A58-257 when landing at Guildford WA. Pilot of A58-257, F/Sgt J A Boyle Serv#423412 was seriously injured. Pilot of A58-137, F/O B. OÇonnell Serv#437192 was not injured. Issued to 4CRD ex 85Sqn RAAF 12/03/45. AMSE Approval to convert to Instructional Airframe per File#9/16/2419 21/03/45. Became Instructional Airframe #8 issued to No5 Cadet Wing, ATC Perth WA 19/04/45. Pics held of both coded aircraft period.

 

A picture is in the old Kookaburra title although if you do a search on the "Spitfire A58-137" and select images you will see a number of images. There is a good discussion of this aircraft and its scheme on ww2aircraft.net https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/done-1-72-spitfire-mk-vc-pacific-theatre-of-operations-ii.40419/

 

Ray 

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28 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I wonder if he used H30 or the original Authentic RAF Dark Green which was darker and more olive - much more accurate.

 

Graham,

Sorry for the quick second post. I see Colourcoats offer ACOZ02 RAAF Foliage Green. Seems like a slightly faded FS*4092. I like it.

Ray

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27 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

...  Sorry Finn, but honestly you wouldn't be missing much.

 

 

I respect that you will want to keep them to your self. For years I had the same feeling, but then I found out that the better of my models wasn't half bad, so started to take photos of them and posting selected views hiding their faults. 

 

I was just being curious, because I have come to "know" you as one who was particular about getting the right look (The Hasegawa Hurricane nose springs to mind).

 

/Finn

 

 

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This was the result of our advice to Special Hobby.....

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/special-hobby-sh48100-supermarine-spitfire-mkvc--112495

 

There's a build of the old Airfix Vc (in overall FG which we think is incorrect) and a close-up of UP-T here

https://modellersofballarat.wordpress.com/articles/aircraft/the-also-ran-fighters-department-airfix-supermarine-spitfire-vc/

(NB - Rowntree not Roundtree)

Like Finn, I would not mind seeing some of Graham's models!

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  • Graham Boak changed the title to RAAF Spitfire Mk.Vc white tail - plus new Airfix Mk.Vc

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