Dr. I Fokker 425/17 gun sight

[AulusHoratius]

Hi all, 

 

I am building Meng's 1/32 Dr. I Fokker in the all red scheme flown by Manfred Von Richthofen in March 1918. I am not too knowledgable on WWI aircraft and have just recently fallen in love with building them. In the instructions there is the option either to use a gun sight for the machine guns which is a long optical sight akin to that of a sniper rifle or alternatively a much smaller reflector gun sight. I have looked through reference photos however have been unable to find any conclusive evidence on what the Red Baron used as a sight on this aircraft. I have found an image of the aircraft which the Red Baron died in a month later (again 425/17 but with a white tail) (http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3205&cat=1). Is the aircraft carrying the smaller reflector sight here and is it therefore safe to assume the same sight was being used a month earlier on the all red paint scheme 425/17? To complicate matters further the box art shows the long sight being used and the instructions do not specify which to use. 

 

Thank you all very much in anticipation for your input!

[Tony Edmundson]

here is 425/17  and it's guns;  no sights, and note the odd shaped gun padding.

 

[AulusHoratius]

1 hour ago, Tony Edmundson said:

here is 425/17  and it's guns;  no sights, and note the odd shaped gun padding.

 

Thanks Tony this is really helpful! Par chance do you know if 425/17 had a cushion on the seat as the kit says not to use it for this aircraft?

[Paul Thompson]

1 hour ago, Tony Edmundson said:

here is 425/17  and it's guns;  no sights, and note the odd shaped gun padding.

 

 

Not quite right, there are still the standard ring sights mounted at the front of the guns, which is all German pilot's guns usually had. If there was a tubular sight it was often an Aldis sight taken from a downed Allied machine.

 

Mentioned somewhere on Britmodeller is that the reflector sight was a real thing but very rarely fitted. Can't remember and don't have time to look it up right now, although I confess I was unaware of it's existence before I saw the kit.

 

Paul.

[wavanberkel]

I do not know a lot about this aircraft, but there is a gentleman on https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/ who is i.m.o.o. an expert on these aircraft.

 

Maybe this link wil help you to contact him:

 

https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=11501.0

 

Willem

[Tony Edmundson]

8 hours ago, AulusHoratius said:

Thanks Tony this is really helpful! Par chance do you know if 425/17 had a cushion on the seat as the kit says not to use it for this aircraft?

no, I do not know that, sorry.

[Tony Edmundson]

8 hours ago, Paul Thompson said:

Not quite right, there are still the standard ring sights mounted at the front of the guns,

 

 

when I said 'no sights'   I was referring to the Aldis sight mentioned and the 'reflector sight' part of the initial query.   Quite easy to see the standard ring  sights on the guns

 

Cheers, Tony

Edited January 6, 2021 by Tony Edmundson

[G.R.Morrison]

The 'Aldis' sight that has been mentioned was a (German) Oigee sight.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235081480-fokker-dr1-triplane-132-meng-via-creative-models/&tab=comments#comment-3907021

 

I have never seen any 'different' sights on a von Richthofen machine (Albatros or Fokker), just the standard 'iron' ring-and-bead sights.

 

Good luck with your build, GRM

 

BTW, the JG 1 machines were operating from muddy front-line fields, during a soggy March and April, so you may want to include some 'splash' from the wheels.

[Paul Thompson]

8 hours ago, G.R.Morrison said:

The 'Aldis' sight that has been mentioned was a (German) Oigee sight.

 

 

Not always though. But the captured Aldis sights were used less often than I thought when I made the post. I know the Oigee sight (at least 2 versions) was used on the Parabellum observer's gun, so maybe that derailed my thinking, such as it is. Still,  from what I remember the usual deal with the average German scout was to rely on the iron sites as shown on Tony Edmundson's photo above. The Oigee reflector was only used on a few Albatros and Fokker Triplanes, in 1918 (according to the unreliable Mr and Mrs Wiki - I've been looking all morning but can't find my Windsock books on German guns).

 

Paul.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Paul Thompson
I left out a key word.

[AulusHoratius]

21 hours ago, wavanberkel said:

I do not know a lot about this aircraft, but there is a gentleman on https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/ who is i.m.o.o. an expert on these aircraft.

 

Maybe this link wil help you to contact him:

 

https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=11501.0

 

Willem

Thank-you very much

[AulusHoratius]

10 hours ago, G.R.Morrison said:

The 'Aldis' sight that has been mentioned was a (German) Oigee sight.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235081480-fokker-dr1-triplane-132-meng-via-creative-models/&tab=comments#comment-3907021

 

I have never seen any 'different' sights on a von Richthofen machine (Albatros or Fokker), just the standard 'iron' ring-and-bead sights.

 

Good luck with your build, GRM

 

BTW, the JG 1 machines were operating from muddy front-line fields, during a soggy March and April, so you may want to include some 'splash' from the wheels.

thanks, i'll keep that in mind as I fancy applying some weathering to this build. What is the WWI plane equivalent of chipping on a ww2 era plane? How should I show the material/colour underneath the red exterior? I presume that red paint was applied to a canvas cloth like fabric...

[G.R.Morrison]

4 hours ago, AulusHoratius said:

What is the WWI plane equivalent of chipping on a ww2 era plane?

Without intending any snark, the simple answer is (also) "chipping."  There were some unique scratches around the cockpit area, on both sides of 425/17, which have helped in identifying it in earlier and later photos.  On other machines, flaked dope or paint is also seen, and sometimes patches.  The covering on WW-I aircaft wasn't heavy canvas, but rather linen, and the 'clear-doped linen' color can vary from near-white to a cream-color (tinged yellow).  The cross fields on the bottom wing of Fokker's triplanes were clear-doped linen, with the black cross pattée.

 

I don't have a photo-hosting service, so cannot insert images here, but if you wish to send me a PM with your email addy, I'll dispatch the 425/17 examples.

 

GRM

[ARHinVA]

13 hours ago, Paul Thompson said:

Not always though. But the captured Aldis sights were used less often than I thought when I made the post. I know the Oigee sight (at least 2 versions) was used on the Parabellum observer's gun, so maybe that derailed my thinking, such as it is. Still,  from what I remember the usual deal with the average German scout was to rely on the iron sites as shown on Tony Edmundson's photo above. The Oigee reflector was only used on a few Albatros and Fokker Triplanes, in 1918 (according to the unreliable Mr and Mrs Wiki - I've been looking all morning but can't find my Windsock books on German guns).

 

Paul.

From what I understand the German's couldn't figure out why the Brits were using Aldis sight as when they [Germans] tried it the sight would fog up.  Apparently when manufactured, the sites were filled & sealed with very low-humidity air; & somehow the seals were compromised before the Germans tested it.

 

And concerning MvR & sights - I suspect he would say that if you need a sight you are not close enough.

[Paul Thompson]

I finally found the source for my belief that the tubular sight was likely to be a captured Aldis. Windsock Mini Datafile 10, Spandau Guns, by Harry Woodman. Page 7. According to Woodman, most used the ringsight (with simple rear sight) as fitted to the LMG 08/15. Individual pilots fitted captured French or British sights, among which was the Aldis. He only mentions the Oigee reflector, in small numbers at the end of the war for field trials. So I assumed the Oigee tubular type was for the Parabellum only.

 

Paul.

On 07/01/2021 at 03:38, G.R.Morrison said:

The 'Aldis' sight that has been mentioned was a (German) Oigee sight.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235081480-fokker-dr1-triplane-132-meng-via-creative-models/&tab=comments#comment-3907021

 

I have never seen any 'different' sights on a von Richthofen machine (Albatros or Fokker), just the standard 'iron' ring-and-bead sights.

 

Good luck with your build, GRM

 

BTW, the JG 1 machines were operating from muddy front-line fields, during a soggy March and April, so you may want to include some 'splash' from the wheels.

 

[Eivind Lunde]

Wasn't Mr. Richthofens tactic to get in extremely close before shooting anyway, thus negating the need for anything more complex than the standard ring and bead sights?