Ferdinand / Jagd Panther

[echen]

I have just finished re-reading "Caen, Anvil of Victory" by Alexander McKee. I read somewhere that the author was present in Normandy after D-Day and later served in Germany after hostilities ended.

On page 308 an incident is described where 3 Ferdinands took out 11 Churchills at a place called Quarry Hill on 30th July 1944. These vehicles are later described as Jagd Panthers, 128mm guns mounted on Panther chassis.

Until now my understanding of Ferdinands has been of 88mm tank hunters on the Porsche Tiger chassis discarded in favour of the Henschel Tigers. These vehicles being modified into Elephant tank destroyers and used only on the Eastern Front and in Italy.

Also, my understanding is that the only 128mm armed AFVs were Jagdtigers based on the Konigstiger chassis.

Has anyone come across a 128mm armed Jagdpanther also named a Ferdinand?                                 

[Kingsman]

I think the author is merely confused, which is not uncommon with recollections written later and with often incomplete or mythical/rumoured knowledge of enemy AFV.

 

No Jagdpanthers or Elefants were ever armed with the 12.8cm KwK44.  It was a struggle even to fit that large weapon with hefty recoil, separate loading ammunition and 2 loaders into the massive Jagdtiger.  By the time of the NWE campaign all Ferdinands had been converted to Elefants as you say.  IIRC all the Elefants were subsequently sent and encountered further south in Italy, then Austria and South Germany.

 

Also, the 12.8cm KwK was not in use during the campaigns in France and was not encountered until the winter of 1944 and much further East in Belgium and Germany.  It was also always in short supply and, rather than fitting it in other vehicles, it was proposed to complete some Jagdtigers with 8.8cm guns as weapon production lagged behind vehicle production.  In the end only about 70 guns were ever built.

 

The Elefant conversion made the Ferdinand more suited to the Panzerjager role.  The terrain in Italy and later Austria allowed the Elefant to use the full range potential of its PaK43/2 gun.  Unlike the Jadgtiger, which was not fielded until the war had moved into much closer terrain where the long range advantage could not be used and the limited traverse and manoeuvrability were distinct disadvantages. 

 

The only other German AFV to mount a 12.8cm weapon was the "Sturer Emil" 12.8 cm Selbstfahrlafette auf VK 30.01(H).  This mounted the earlier 12.8 cm PaK40, also derived from the 12.8cm FlaK40.  But only 2 of these were built and both went to the Russian front where one was destroyed and the other captured.  It still exists in the Kubinka museum.

 

It is therefore entirely plausible and probably correct that the engagement in question involved Jagdpanthers, but they would have been armed with the standard 8.8cm PaK43.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Das Abteilung
correction

[echen]

Thanks Das Abteilung. Your response confirms my suspicion that the German AFVs were mis-identified as Fedinands; particularly when I found the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rbtlvrj0hY4 about operation "Bluecoat" which is also mentioned in the book as including this incident.

I just wasn't sure of the extent of my knowledge about Ferdinands/JPs and thought I might have missed something.

 

[spruecutter96]

Even during the war, mis-identification of enemy armour was pretty common. I remember seeing a photo of an American P-47 pilot posing next to a "Tiger" he had destroyed. The problem was, he was standing next to a Panther tank. I've often wondered if the bragging rights and kudos given to any pilot who actually knocked-out a genuine Tiger, meant that there was a potential for the facts to be sometimes "overlooked".

 

Chris.  

Edited January 5, 2021 by spruecutter96
Correcting a typo.

[Kingsman]

Every German tank was a Tiger, and every AT gun was an "88"!  With HV rounds cracking past your ears and taking out your oppos it was often unwise to stop to check too closely.........

 

The Panther's 7.5cm KwK42 was just as effective out to 1,000m or so as the Tiger's 8.8cm KwK36 or the 8.8cm FlaK 18/36/37.  Indeed no Sherman was safe at 1,000m from a Pz.Kpfw IV with the 7.5cm KwK40 or a PaK40.  And a PzIV with turret schurzen could very easily be mis-identified as a Tiger at longer ranges.

 

But saying that you battled a Tiger or knocked out an 88 undoubtedly gave more kudos than a PzIV or a PaK40, despite these both being very dangerous opponents to any Allied tank.  If you believe all the combat report claims there must have been at least 10,000 Tigers!