Flory wash.. am I doing it wrong??

[foxhandybread]

Hi all and happy new year

 

I'm working away on my fourth aircraft model so still relatively new to this and am struggling with something that sounds like it should be a breeze... Flory wash. I wanted to do some basic weathering, namely panel lines and some definition around the seams and from research it seems like Flory was by far the easiest and most forgiving for the newcomer so bought myself a bottle of the Dark Dirt wash. Made sure that the model got a good shiny Klear finish before applying the wash as an overall coat but am having big issues with the seams / corners.

 

basically it's fine for the panel lines, but in the corners where I'd like some subtle definition, when wiping it away it comes off in the middle (the actual corner) but sticks in a small area around the corner, and in many places I can't shift it at all. It's tricky to describe so some pics below:

 

You can see it around the underside of the tailplane here

And particularly on the inner side of the intake

Particularly in this last image, the wash is basically glued on at this point, I can't shift it with water and am not looking forward to trying anything stronger as I've spent long enough on this, I might have to just live with it.. it'll be a dirty looking aircraft if so!

 

Basically it doesn't seem to behave how I expect and I am really struggling to get a decent effect anywhere on the model that I use it. It's slightly frustrating as I was expecting it to be pretty fool proof but it seems I am too much a fool for that. Have I just got a really bad undercoat? or is there a 'trick' to using this on aircraft to get that subtle panel line accent and corner definition? Any insight would be greatly appreciated

 

Cheers

[spruecutter96]

Hello. 

 

As I'm sure you're aware, Flory washes are clay-based. What this means in practical terms is that you should be able to remove them either ten minutes or ten years after application. They should never be difficult to remove (in theory, anyway). You should be able to remove them entirely, with ease. 

 

I remember watching a Youtube video years ago , in which Phil Flory used standard kitchen-roll (VERY slightly moistened) to remove his wash. He emphasized that you should wipe it off in the direction air would flow whilst the plane is in flight. He said the effect they produce should be subtle (on aircraft, anyway). Obviously, washes on tanks are another matter, entirely.

 

Have you tried a wet cotton-bud to remove the excessive wash? I'm thinking that the wash has reacted with your varnish-layer in some way and (unfortunately) it might be permanent now.  All I could suggest that - with your next model - you leave a minimum of a week between the varnish-coat and the Flory wash. If you are really bothered about how the Harrier looks, then you have two options - a full rub-down of all the coats and re-painting or live with it as it is. 

 

Hope this helps.  

 

Chris. 

 

PS: Do you have any Isopropol Alcohol available? If that doesn't shift the Flory wash, nothing will. Just be careful that you don't remove anything you want to stay in place.   

Edited January 4, 2021 by spruecutter96
Amending some information.

[bmwh548]

To me it looks like the wash really grips where your paint/clearcoat is really rough which is perfectly normal. Flory actually emphasizes that in his videos (rough/textured surfaces will make the wash stick). However you can still remove it, you just need different tools for the job. Try using cotton buds and if that doesn't work switch to a medium brush dipped in water and just go at it until you take it all off. I doubt there's any chances of chipping the paint, but I would avoid a very tough brush just in case.

 

In  the future try a bit more sanding on the seams/right angles so you get smooth surfaces, that should help. I don't know if you're using an airbrush, but if you are: tight corners require certain techniques because paint bounces off and the result is a gritty surface when it dries.

[foxhandybread]

many thanks @spruecutter96 and @bmwh548 I think you are both right in that it's my finish that's the issue. I did leave the varnish for a while but next time probably should do for longer, and I need to pay more attention to the seams to make sure they are properly smooth and flush. @bmwh548 if you can recall off the top of your head any resources concerning the correct technique for tight corners, I'd be very much appreciative

 

Cheers

[spruecutter96]

Hello. 

 

I would recommend that you watch some of Phil Flory's Youtube videos about using the washes. They should point you in the right direction, at the very least. 

 

Cheers. 

 

Chris.  

[bmwh548]

Right angles/tight corners are approached differently by users, depending on the type of paint in particular.

A few questions that would help with the correct advice:

What type of paint are you using (specifically)? What do you thin it with and what ratios? Are you using retarders? What air pressure (rough estimate)? Are you using primers (if so what type)? 

 

For doing right angles I go with thin paint, low pressure and I go a bit wet so that the coat of paint already applied will "assimilate" the particles that bounce off.

Enamels help in that regard because they tend to dry a lot slower than lacquers or waterbased paints, but you can successfully use the last two with a drop of retarder.

 

I'm sure others will contribute with their own technique, the key is not to get set on a single "option". Multiple ways to skin a cat, as Flory would say. Just try all of the suggestions on some scrap pieces (or make your own using some basic plastic pieces and a bit of glue) and stick to the one that suits your style.

[RobL]

I have had similar problems with Mr Flory's washes.  Particularly the last bottle or two of Dark Dirt I purchased between 2019 and earlier this year.  Mostly the "trick" is to have deep trenches for panel lines.  I've quite often found that Flory's wash does not catch in shallow panel lines.  Even when I use a semi-gloss clear coat.

 

Flory's videos only go so far in being helpful, because he vigorously defends his products and he assumes that you have the exact same environmental conditions that he does, and that you do everything his way.

 

I was a member of his private club, until earlier this year, and did ask questions about problems like this on the daily video shows he does, but never received a straight answer...

 

 

 

To try to get rid of those spots use a mini cotton bud (Q tip in the US), Tamiya do some, although they are rather overpriced, or dental micro brushes - simply as they are easier to get into those areas. 

 

Water is the key here.  Use HOT water, the hotter the better.  Cold water will remove very little of the product.

 

If that doesn't work, then it's quite possible you have a clear coat that hasn't gone off properly before you applied the wash and the wash has got "stuck" in the clear coat in those areas - I had that happen on an A-6 Intruder, I used Future/Klear and it didn't go off properly, as a result the wash got "stuck" in the clear coat, even though the clear coat didn't feel tacky. 

 

As a last resort, if you can get a sander in there you may be able to sand away the dirt spots - use the finest grit possible so as not to remove too much of anything else.  Flory's own green/white polisher sticks are useful for this.

 

Or, like I often do, you could leave those spots as they are, and just say that's part of the weathering, i.e. dirt build up.

Edited January 6, 2021 by RobL
clarity

[Lewis95]

To be honest, I've used the UMP version of his wash and found the same issue. Unless your surface is dead smooth, it's a sod to get off. I've taken this in stride however and now I use the clay based wash in the knowledge it's going to properly "grime" an area. 

[keiron99]

I bought some Flory dark dirt wash and I've only experimented with it on an old scrap model.

 

Can someone clarify at what stage you apply this?

 

So, for example, on my current model I have applied a gloss varnish and the decals are now in place.  Do I now use the Flory wash, then give a top coat of matt varnish?

 

Or do I apply another coat of gloss on top of the decals and then apply the Flory, and a final coat of matt varnish?

 

Or will the final coat of matt varnish react with the Flory?

 

 

 

 

[Tim R-T-C]

28 minutes ago, keiron99 said:

I bought some Flory dark dirt wash and I've only experimented with it on an old scrap model.

 

Can someone clarify at what stage you apply this?

 

So, for example, on my current model I have applied a gloss varnish and the decals are now in place.  Do I now use the Flory wash, then give a top coat of matt varnish?

 

Or do I apply another coat of gloss on top of the decals and then apply the Flory, and a final coat of matt varnish?

 

Or will the final coat of matt varnish react with the Flory?

 

 

Flory wash shouldn't react with anything, provided the layer is dry. It is water and clay-based pigment so nothing to conflict with acyrlic or enamel paint. I generally leave acrylic varnish for 24 hours and never had a problem.

 

However you definitely should varnish over the top of decals because the water in the Flory wash could dislodge these, as could the wiping off - I suspect this is the same for all washes.

 

A gloss varnish makes it easier to wipe the wash off - although as the posts above, I do find it can form up in corners and be hard to dislodge, but I've not used enough different washes to know if any other products are better for this - matt varnish will catch the wash for a more dirty, grimy look.

 

I generally leave another 24 hours then varnish again to seal everything in.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Tim R-T-C