Vickers Viking Info required

[Moggy]

4 minutes ago, maxdecal said:

So for an Aer Lingus Viking 1B the best starting point is the Royal Flight boxing of the Valom Kit? I didn't know the wings were different on the Viking 1A. Did Valom update the wings as well as the fuselages between the various boxings? I can cut out windows but as Moggy said cutting two fuselages at exactly the right angle and joining them square and true has never worked for me in the past!

 

Cheers

Joe

 

Whether a Royal Flight Viking is a better start point for a Viking 1B than the other boxings is unclear (at least before I get my box)

 

However the Viking 1A was the designation for the early Vikings with fabric-covered geodetic wings and tailplane (basically the Wellington wings).

The Viking 1B had stressed-skin wings and tailplane - and a 28 inch / 71 cm plug in the forward fuselage mainly to increase passenger capacity.

 

When I bought my Viking box the only two still available were the BEA Viking 1A (the box art shows an early BEA 1A) and the Royal Flight boxing - so I bought the Royal Flight boxing since it should have the stressed-skin wings and tail surfaces. Since Hannant's has been badly hit by the Brexit chaos I bought mine from Modelimex in the Czech Republic.

 

When I receive my Viking kit I'll report on what's in the box - hopefully the longer fuselage and the metal wings!

Air Enthusiast #21 has a very useful article on the Vickers VC.1 Viking (its official name) 🧐

 

 

Cheers, Moggy

[TheyJammedKenny!]

1 hour ago, maxdecal said:

I didn't know the wings were different on the Viking 1A.

They are not different at all, unless Valom made extra efforts to simulate this, which they did not, judging from photos of the parts.  Only the first 19 Vikings built (retrospectively as 1As) were those with the Wellington's fabric-covered, geodetic construction wings, and silver-doped to resemble stressed skin.  In photos of the prototype and some early, early, early Vikings, you can see the pattern.  Airlines demanded the stressed-skin construction, which was easier to maintain, and Vickers built another 34 or so short-fuselage Vikings with the new wings. If one is a glutton for punishment, it might be possible to graft the outer wings from a Wellington onto this kit after cutting away the wing structure adjacent to the engines.  Otherwise, for Irish Airlines, the aircraft is a "long nose" 1B.  Do the kit's instructions tell where to make the cuts?

Edited February 22, 2021 by TheyJammedKenny!
accuracy, accuracy

[Dave Swindell]

16 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

Airlines demanded the stressed-skin construction, which was easier to maintain, and Vickers built another 34 or so short-fuselage Vikings with the new wings.

My understanding is that all Mk1/1A (short fuselage) Vikings had geodetic construction wings, the first 19 initially being fabric covered, the later ones being skinned in non stressed aluminium with some of the initial batch also having the fabric replaced by aluminium. The later long fuselage 1B had redesigned fully stressed metal covered wings, albeit of the same planform/section. 

Modelwise, the geodetic structure is hardly visible fullsize on the ground, so shouldn't really be present at 1;72nd scale, especially  as moulded by the likes of Trumpeter on their Wellington. The only visible difference with the fabric and metal skin could be a representation of the metal panels. I haven't seen the Valom kit so can't comment on how they've moulded the wings, but there shouldn't be any major difference in the kit wings between the 1A fabric, 1A metal and 1B stressed metal

As an aside, F-rsin are releasing a series of viking/valetta plastic kits in 1:144

 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

8 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

the later ones being skinned in non stressed aluminium with some of the initial batch also having the fabric replaced by aluminium.

You, sir, are correct!  I just took a closer look at the one photo I have of a Royal Flight aircraft being part-disassembled for maintenance, and with the wings removed.  Workers have de-skinned the wings, and you can clearly see the underlying geodetic structure.  I agree with you: whether the ultimate skin is of canvas, unstressed metal, or stressed aluminum, the underlying differences will not be noted in 1/72.  1/32, perhaps!  As it happens, the kit's representative rib-work for the ailerons is a bit overdone, so I won't be afraid to sand it off in the course of fixing the primer coat.

[Team Aer Lingus]

I've a sneaky feeling the Royal Flight boxing may not be much different from the 1a/Valletta. I hope I'm wrong I do think Valom missed a trick not going for the 1B straight away, as it was  built in much bigger numbers than the 1a but we live in hope it's a 1B in the box.

 

Thanks everyone for all the info so far 

 

regards

 

Eamonn

[maxdecal]

Hi Folks,

I just got hold of the Viking C.2 (Royal Flight) boxing and as others have said it comes with two full fuselages. I think all the boxings by Valom come with two fuselages but don't quote me for sure. The short one has the passenger door and the long one has the extra length in the front fuselage and the cargo door at the rear. So to make an Aer Lingus Viking 1B I need the long fuselage but with the small passenger door at the rear end. It seems to me that one way of doing it is to simply cut both sets of fuselages in line with the rear wing fairing and swap the passenger door fuselage section with that of the cargo door onto the long fuselage piece.

You can view an image at http://www.maxdecals.com/viking.jpg I tried putting it into this post but it wouldn't allow me for some reason.

 

Cheers

Joe

 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

2 hours ago, maxdecal said:

It seems to me that one way of doing it is to simply cut both sets of fuselages in line with the rear wing fairing and swap the passenger door fuselage section with that of the cargo door onto the long fuselage piece.

I just took a look at your graphic, and differ with your choice of cuts.  If I understand the Viking 1b/1c correctly, the extension was ahead of the wing, not behind it, so I would cut the fuselage ahead of the first passenger window on each fuselage, and graft the Valetta's forward fuselage to the Viking.  The question is which horizontal stabilizers to use on the long-nosed Viking, as two sets are provided with the Viking kit.

 

BTW, your decal designs look great!  Might you contemplate a set for the Viking?

[maxdecal]

12 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

I just took a look at your graphic, and differ with your choice of cuts.  If I understand the Viking 1b/1c correctly, the extension was ahead of the wing, not behind it, so I would cut the fuselage ahead of the first passenger window on each fuselage, and graft the Valetta's forward fuselage to the Viking.  The question is which horizontal stabilizers to use on the long-nosed Viking, as two sets are provided with the Viking kit.

 

BTW, your decal designs look great!  Might you contemplate a set for the Viking?

Looking at the window spacing on the two fuselages I think it might be easier all round to make the cut at the back end of the fuselage rather than at the front. The long fuselage has the extra length in front of the wing and regular window spacings. The short fuselage 1A has the front window spaced between where the two windows would be on the 1B making it a bit more complicated to convert the front end. Thanks for your kind comments on my decals. I hope to do a sheet on the Viking but will need more evidence as to the colours used on the cheatline and lettering.

Cheers,

Joe

[Team Aer Lingus]

Hi all

 

Thanks for the update Joe and as expected it's a 1a fuselage. 

 

So two different options for cutting this could be a good challenge gentlemen ? front or back cut both have merits!  but it would have been better if Valom had provided the right one in the first place. Judging by the interest in this aircraft it would have kept us all happy.  

 

Joe I agree with Alex it would be great if you could rustle up a sheet but the colour schemes are even worse than Seafire Green 🤣, I once met an Aer Lingus retiree who told me the cheatline was the same colour as the CIE buses & trains not orange but I didn't know if he was on a wind up.  For such a short time in the fleet they seemed to be painted a number of different shades and so were the DAKs but getting definitive proof is going to be a nightmare.  It would also be great if you could reissue your early Aer Lingus sheet mine were stolen in a burglary back in  Dub along with a lot of other sheets I haven't been able to replace and I  would along with many others be grateful to you if you re pop them.

 

 

stay safe everyone

 

Eamonn

 

 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

On 3/9/2021 at 1:24 PM, maxdecal said:

So to make an Aer Lingus Viking 1B I need the long fuselage but with the small passenger door at the rear end. It seems to me that one way of doing it is to simply cut both sets of fuselages in line with the rear wing fairing and swap the passenger door fuselage section with that of the cargo door onto the long fuselage piece.

@maxdecal: I just gave this additional thought, and examined photos of the short-body moldings.  Yours is the correct approach.  Use the Valetta's fuselage as the basis for the 1B, and substitute the aft-end of the short fuselage's left side to get that pax door in the right place.  On the right side of the Valetta fuselage, cut out the tiny window above the galley.  No need to make things more difficult.  Sand off those intakes on the forward fuselage and substitute part 54 (2 pieces) on both sides to get the correct look.  Gently file the cowl flaps until they go straight up and down, and omit parts 47 x 2.  

 

The windows are incredibly clear on this model, and it just cries out for an interior, complete with passengers looking out the windows!

[Disraeligears]

Another person lusting after a Maxdecals Aer Lingus early years sheet!

I also intrigued by the colour shemes of the early years,and I exchanged some messages with Joe late last year.

I discovered some pictures of Constellations arriving at Shannon airport in 1947.they are on the Clare County Library website.

https://clarelibrary.fotoware.cloud/fotoweb/archives/5009-Bluett-Photograph-Collection/

There is a picture of one of the Connies with a DC3in the background.

 The 2nd colour looks like it is orange but it is unclear whether these pictures have been colourised or not.

Orange and green is not a great combination from a graphics/legibility point of view.

And lets face it orange wouldnt have been the most popular colour in the nascent Free State of the 1940s!

I always had a sneaking suspicion that the lighter colour on the 1940s scheme was a paler green though.

Eamonn your theory of the paler green a la the buses and trains of the period would be quite plausible.

Joe your theory of the orange being in fact a pale gold type colour i think is a lot more plausible than the orange.

Im in the process of knocking up a couple of samples for your perusal,i will post them here shortly,I am a lettering/signwriting,typography person.

 

[Admiral Puff]

I will be building mine as VL231/A82-1, the sole Viking C.2 operated by the RAAF on loan from the RAF between November 1947 and October 1951. It made such an impression that the RAAF decided not to order Valettas ...

 

I have a single picture of the beast, taken from three-quarter front on the starboard side. Can anyone tell me:

* As a RAF aircraft, would VL231 have had the standard passenger door, or the Valetta-style freight door; and

* Would it have had the squared-off elevator tip of the civil Viking, or the Valetta-style rounded tip?

[Space Ranger]

Perhaps these will be helpful; from Aeromodeller, March 1947:

 

 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

On 3/23/2021 at 1:00 AM, Admiral Puff said:

As a RAF aircraft, would VL231 have had the standard passenger door, or the Valetta-style freight door; and

* Would it have had the squared-off elevator tip of the civil Viking, or the Valetta-style rounded tip?

Air Enthusiast #21 has a whole article dedicated to the Viking, and I must (or you must) get your hands on it.  For the moment, I'm left with Scale Aircraft Modeling Vol 17, #7, which shows the King's Flight aircraft with just one passenger door and rounded elevator tips.  It does not elaborate on what external differences might obtain with the Viking C.2, so I would await others' views on whether it had a regular pax door or double cargo doors a'la the Valetta. 

 

Thanks, as always, @Space Ranger for the excellent links!  I just had to laugh at the "obsolete" Dakota described therein, and the Viking's rather modest gain in performance over the former ("just" 3.5 hours, versus 4 hours for a flight to Oslo, what a deal!).  In spite of it all, I still like the Viking/Valetta.

[Admiral Puff]

Thanks, Michael.

 

I suppose that I'm really seeking confirmation that the RAF's Vikings were in standard civil configuration rather than set up with cargo doors, etc., as per the Valetta.

 

And thanks too, TheyJammedKenny! I have both those magazines here somewhere - must dig them out. I suspect that at least part of the reason the RAAF decided against Valettas was that the Viking kept breaking down on them, whereas their C-47s just kept on keeping on.

[Dave Swindell]

10 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

Air Enthusiast #21 has a whole article dedicated to the Viking, and I must (or you must) get your hands on it.  For the moment, I'm left with Scale Aircraft Modeling Vol 17, #7, which shows the King's Flight aircraft with just one passenger door and rounded elevator tips.  It does not elaborate on what external differences might obtain with the Viking C.2, so I would await others' views on whether it had a regular pax door or double cargo doors a'la the Valetta. 

 

Thanks, as always, @Space Ranger for the excellent links!  I just had to laugh at the "obsolete" Dakota described therein, and the Viking's rather modest gain in performance over the former ("just" 3.5 hours, versus 4 hours for a flight to Oslo, what a deal!).  In spite of it all, I still like the Viking/Valetta.

Externally, excluding colour schemes, there's very little difference between a Viking 1b and a Viking C2

The Viking C2 came in several flavours, depending on internal fit and equipment

Vickers type 621  - Standard RAF C.2

Vickers type 623 Kings Flight Royal Aircraft  2 main lounges each with 4 seats in facing pairs VL246-7

Vickers type 624 Kings Flight Staff Aircraft 21 seats VL245

Vickers type 626 Kings Flight Support Spares Maintenance VL248

 

The Vikings fitted with strengthened floors and cargo doors were known as Valetta C.1's in the RAF

 

Elevator tips were modified early in service following grounding from 8 Dec 1946 - 21 Apr 1947 to investigate elevator icing overbalance. The port elevator horn balance was squared off to leave just a small mass balance, whilst the starboard horn balance was increased in area giving a larger much more rounded tip. Therefore there was no rounded vs square tip, they all had both after 1946.

[Team Aer Lingus]

So Gentlemen who's going to be first to attempt this conversion? 

 

Great information as always I'm learning a lot about this aircraft & modelling techniques thank you all .

 

stay safe

 

Eamonn

[TheyJammedKenny!]

3 hours ago, Team Aer Lingus said:

So Gentlemen who's going to be first to attempt this conversion? 

 

Great information as always I'm learning a lot about this aircraft & modelling techniques thank you all .

 

stay safe

 

Eamonn

Probably not me, unfortunately, until I've finished my Valetta!

[Team Aer Lingus]

Any suggestions as to the best method  to cut the fuselages ? and will it entail a lot of extra work?

[TheyJammedKenny!]

2 hours ago, Team Aer Lingus said:

Any suggestions as to the best method  to cut the fuselages

I don't know what you call it in Ireland, but I'd invest in a mitre box that measures at least the half-fuselage height of the model, depth-wise.  This box will allow you to make "true" 90 degree cuts relative to the datum.  You'll want to secure the fuselage half in place somehow--perhaps with a vice grip--and use a razor saw to make the cuts.  Keep in mind that in the course of using the razor saw, you'll probably remove at least 1/2mm of plastic from the part.  This is unavoidable.  Therefore, you must take this into account with both fuselage halves that you cut--both the donor and the recipient of the new rear fuselage half, and compensate appropriately.  When you assemble the halves, use the vertical fin's alignment as your guide.

 

Alternately, you could use tape to mark out your cuts, and use a new knife blade to make guide cuts, then follow with a Tamiya scribing tool.

[Team Aer Lingus]

Cheers Alex

 

I've ordered a mitre  box  knowing my skills it could all end in tears but I think  it's going to be worth a try 

 

many thanks

 

Eamonn

[Admiral Puff]

And might I suggest that when you join the two fuselage sections you align the cabin windows? If they're not lined up it will stand out like the proverbial dog's whatnots on a cat, and if they're aligned everything else should be as well.

[dogsbody]

Just remembered I had these:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[TheyJammedKenny!]

Those are great drawings @dogsbody!  I need to get my hands on Air Enthusiast #21.  Was this the source, or was it from another?

[dogsbody]

14 minutes ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

Those are great drawings @dogsbody!  I need to get my hands on Air Enthusiast #21.  Was this the source, or was it from another?

 

 

These are from Vol. 1, Number 3 of Planes magazine, 1982, I think.

 

 

 

Chris