On Heather's Workbench - a Luftwaffe Workhorse

[Heather Kay]

3 minutes ago, AdrianMF said:

the proud owner of a brand spanking new GWR tank engine?

Sadly not yet. The client is in Holland, and I’ve still not quite completed the build. I had planned some final paint and weathering over Christmas, but my airbrush decided to break. In spite of spending on spare parts, it’s still not working, so I’ve lashed out on a new airbrush to get me going again (awaiting delivery soon, I hope). When funds allow I’ll send the broken one off to be serviced properly.

 

 

So, I picked up another stalled job, which is building four Southern Railway coaches. Last week, and I’m not kidding, was spent building one pair of PE bogies! The week before was completing the underframe and erecting the bodywork on one coach. 

[Heather Kay]

Alright, I gave in.

 

 

I began with the vinyl stickers on the smallest panes of the gondola. I ended up doing the whole thing with the vinyl. I know I said I wasn’t happy, but they did work. Most of the glazing, despite the conical schnozz, is more or less flat.

 

I glued the gondola fore and aft sections in place. I have a sort of plan to glue the gondola temporarily in place for painting the airframe, then prising it off and sticking the machine gun in. I think it’s going to be the other way round. A test fit found I may need some careful sanding around the gondola-fuselage joint, and that means the glazed area will need to be glued in place properly.

 

 

The first part of the nose glazing has been fixed in place. I plan to build up the nose glazing as per the instructions, but tack the machine gun cupola in place for painting. The machine gun can be popped in later, hopefully, and the cupola fixed permanently.

 

 

This is where I’m leaving things for now. A daub or two of the interior grey over the outsides of the glazing, with some selected areas inside where the clear material might refract.

 

The beetle back canopy on the fuselage spine will probably need to be tacked in place and carefully masked to prevent paint getting inside the model. Then it’s waiting for my new airbrush before I get on with the painting phase.

[CedB]

Fingers crossed for the mask Heather, they look fine  

 

I’ve made some ‘gun masks’ from cable outers cut to length with Tak in the end to grip the gun. Works for me. You might need some more Tak to block bigger openings. 

[Marklo]

Nice progress on the build.

 

I’m  currently reading ‘the rise of the Luftwaffe 1918-1940’ by Hebert Molloy Mason, a very good read if you’re interested in the period.

 

What I hadn’t realised was that the first head of the new Luftwaffe Walther Wever was very conscious of the need for heavy bombers and commissioned the Ju89 and the Do19 both 4 engines long range heavy bombers prototypes of both flew before the war, but on Wevers death the programmes were cancelled. 
 

Also the decision to make the He177 dive capable was taken by Jeschonnek (Wevers replacement) and only communicated to Hitler later in the war, who immediately rescinded the directive.

 

The two heavy bombers look an awful lot like the Lancaster btw.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Marklo

[Heather Kay]

1 hour ago, Marklo said:

What I hadn’t realised was that the first head of the new Luftwaffe Walther Wever was very conscious of the need for heavy bombers and commissioned the Ju89 and the Do19 both 4 engines long range heavy bombers prototypes of both flew before the war, but on Wevers death the programmes were cancelled. 

One of the those "what might have been" situations, isn’t it? If resources had been used to build up a long range strategic bomber fleet instead of close tactical support for the army… 
 

1 hour ago, CedB said:

I’ve made some ‘gun masks’ from cable outers cut to length with Tak in the end to grip the gun. Works for me. You might need some more Tak to block bigger openings. 

I liked your gun mask idea, Ced. It would probably work well, though to be honest if the protruding barrel was painted the wrong colour it wouldn’t take long to dab some more black around after the fact. My solution for this build might just work. I’ll explain shortly. Meanwhile, here’s how I’m leaving things until I can get proper painting sorted out.

 

 

An overview. The beetle back is perched for effect. I still have to build the gun station to fit in there, but I plan to leave that for a while. This is because, without the gun fittings, I can just about reach inside the fuselage to install the gondola gun.

 

 

The nose is attached. Like Ian @Brandy found, the fit is good, but not that good. I think it all hinges on getting the lower third positioned properly, but you can’t tell if you have until the other parts go on. I ended up with some gaps on the port side, and a mild mismatch in the starboard. The latter has been dealt with by some gentle sanding to smooth it into the fuselage. The former has been dealt with by some Kristal Klear and a damp cotton bud. The gun cupola is attached with KK, and hopefully will ping off after painting so I can install the machine gun. Fitting the gun now would only encourage me to break the damned thing!

 

 

The belly gondola is not pretty. It’s a gnat's too wide for the fuselage. It really needs smoothing properly, and with hindsight I should have left the small window masking until after fitting was done. I’ve applied filler and spent a while making as good as I can, but I think it will need much more to be done. I have a bijou plan-ette forming where I remove the little masks, go at the plastic with various vicious implements to get a really good fit and finish, and then remake the masks using the original full vinyl sheet as a template. Well, it’s an option. I shall see what I think in better light another time.

 

The plan for the top aperture is to leave it unencumbered by a gun and mounting so it can be plugged with foam or something for painting. The gun bits can then go in, and the glazing dropped on top to suit.

 

Considering I hadn’t intended to do anything, I got further than I expected. Back to the day job tomorrow.

[Marklo]

8 minutes ago, Heather Kay said:

If resources had been used to build up a long range strategic bomber fleet instead of close tactical support for the army… 

Yes it all seemed to go awry when Wever died. Thankfully Jeschhonek , who got the position through being a sycophant, not a capable general made many strategic errors and by the time he was in charge Goering seems to have lost interest as well.

 

The Ju89 & 90 and the Do19 would both have been capable of strategic bombing of England and more importantly could have reached the Soviet manufacturing centres later in the war.
 

A Luftwaffe with a strategic bomber force on 1940 and 1941 would have been a total game changer, but thankfully it didn’t happen.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Marklo

[The Spadgent]

Back at it! Great work. Fingers crossed for swift delivery of your new Airbrush.

professional model maker you say. How on earth did you get that gig? I didn’t even think you could do that. 🤔

 

Johnny. 

[mark.au]

4 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

I have a bijou plan-ette forming where I remove the little masks, go at the plastic with various vicious implements to get a really good fit and finish, and then remake the masks using the original full vinyl sheet as a template. Well, it’s an option.

I have had success in the past reusing the vinyl masks.  If you’re careful when you remove them, they will not distort and will retain enough adhesive strength to reattach.

[Ed Russell]

19 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

someone suggested using the vinyl masks as templates to cut out tape. That is my plan

Well, it is possible that the P-Masks will work. They do for some people. I think if they make the glue on a Wednesday or a Sunday, it is okay.

 

 A Luftwaffe with a strategic bomber force on 1940 and 1941 would have been a total game changer

 

With a much smaller tactical air force they may have been defeated by the Poles and French!

[Heather Kay]

10 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

professional model maker you say. How on earth did you get that gig? I didn’t even think you could do that. 🤔

I'm only professional in so far as I get paid to make models for folk.  I fell into it, really, turning a hobby (railway modelling) into a small business. There are lots of railway modellers who feel they don’t have the skills required to put together kits of locos, coaches, wagons and so on. Sadly, I’m never going to get rich doing it.

 

My signature below has various links to stuff I do. You’re welcome to wander round them with a warming beverage of your choice. 

[Heather Kay]

1 hour ago, Ed Russell said:

Well, it is possible that the P-Masks will work. They do for some people. I think if they make the glue on a Wednesday or a Sunday, it is okay.

 

With a much smaller tactical air force they may have been defeated by the Poles and French!

I have used them before, with a reasonable amount of success. As you say, the glue can be a bit hit and miss. Your tactical air force point is also noted. I do enjoy wandering down counterfactual histories sometimes. One of my favourites has been "could the Germans had successfully invaded England in 1940". Arguments rage in academic circles, but they usually end up agreeing gaining a beachhead may have been possible, but wouldn’t have been sustainable once the Royal Navy Home Fleet arrived to deal with the supply chains.

 

For those interested in such things, I recommend seeking out "Invasion of England 1940: the planning of Operation Sealion" by Peter Schenk.

 

8 hours ago, mark.au said:

I have had success in the past reusing the vinyl masks.  If you’re careful when you remove them, they will not distort and will retain enough adhesive strength to reattach.

I may attempt that, thanks. If it doesn’t work, it shouldn’t be too arduous to make new masks to fit.

 

Anyway, my soldering iron beckons!

[CedB]

Good plan Heather.

You'll have the paint on in no time (once the airbrush arrives)  

[Marklo]

I’m big into the history as well as the models, anything from 1870 ( which is when my great grandparents by about 6 left east Prussia for England) to the nineteen fifties; I love.

 

Arguably a strategic airforce wasn’t needed for Blitzkreig operations and up to and including the invasion of France the Luftwaffe was a devastating tool. But ( and it’s a big but) after 1940 the Germans abandoned Blitzkreig and needed a strategic airforce, Wever was the one who insisted that it was a prerequisite for any attack on the Soviet Union.

 

It could also be argued that the Luftwaffe bomber fleet was completely unsuitable for the attacks on Britain and indeed the RAF was the first airforce that the Luftwaffe came up against that was at least their equal, eg at the time of the Battle of Britain the two airforces had comparable Fighter strength and technology  ( arguably things like the use of radar and the fact that the Luftwaffe was at the limits of the range of most of their aircraft, probably gave the RAF an advantage, or at least levelled the field)

 

 But WW2 is full of those what ifs. The Nazis made many many decisions that brought about their own defeat, thankfully, they pulled off some incredible military victories( eg I understand that the invasion of France through the Ardennes is still thought in Westpoint) and also some incredibly stupid ones (not allowing the Heer to finish off the BEF at Dunkirk, declaring war on the US in 1941, going through the Ardennes in 1945, the list goes on)

 

Anyway sorry if I’m hijacking your He 111 thread @Heather Kay like modelling I could discuss history all day  

Edited February 8, 2021 by Marklo

[Graham Boak]

Arguably, however, the German economy simply wasn't big enough for a strategic bomber force.   Which often confused with a long range bomber force.  The RAF was planning to use Battles from French  bases against strategic targets in the Ruhr.  In daylight, unescorted.  Really.  But then the German economy wasn't big enough for the war it had to fund.   Neither was the British.  But the He.111 was as good a bomber in 1939/40 as those of any other European nation, if not better than most.

 

Given that the USN was already fighting the U-boat war, did Hitler really have any choice about war with the US?

 

 

[Heather Kay]

1 hour ago, Marklo said:

Anyway sorry if I’m hijacking

Don't worry about it. Threads often wander off on journeys of their own. They usually wend their way back on topic when they’re good and ready.

 

Currently, it’s still something to do with the He111 and its place in the bigger scheme of things. I’m happy for the discussion to continue if it wants.

[Marklo]

29 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Arguably, however, the German economy simply wasn't big enough for a strategic bomber force. 

Tbh I think the single biggest issue with the third reich was lack of focus, eg too many programs and projects resources spread too thin, eg on the tank front although tanks like the Tiger were formidable and feared by their enemies, up gunning the Panzer IV to the long barrelled 76mm gun ( it was done in two steps, and the resources on programs like the Maus diverted resources that could have changed the course of the war)and focusing on mass production of the same in 1943/43 would have been a much better strategy.  Focusing on Me262 builds in 1942 would have changed things, it only got into volume production as a fighter in 1944.  Believe it or not 1500 Heinkel 177s were built during the war, 1500 ju90s or Do19s would have changed the outcome of the war. If you go into the history in any depth there are some many of these kinds of fundamental errors ( thankfully)

 

Being a product of the late thirties the He111 wasn’t a bad bomber I think the biggest issue was that it was operating at the limits of its range and capabilities by 1940. Apparently around about the time of the battle of Britain’s delegation from the bomber squadrons told the RLM that the equipment they had wasn’t sufficient for the job.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Marklo

[Lewis95]

My better judgement is telling me not to weigh in on the above discussion for fear of missing every other thread I've got open and awaiting a read!

 

The Heinkel looks good. I'll be following with interest as I've got the Motorhead special to build. 

 

And yes I know it is a different series 🤣

[Heather Kay]

Just now, Lewis95 said:

And yes I know it is a different series 🤣

Still essentially the same with the same likely issues. Hopefully mine will also end up mostly painted black, too! 

[Marklo]

2 hours ago, Lewis95 said:

My better judgement is telling me not to weigh in on the above discussion for fear of missing every other thread I've got open and awaiting a read!

This a bit of a minefield, there are just so many turning points in the history of ww2. What if Chamberlain had sued for peace with Germany in 1939, what if The BEF had been overrun at Dunkirk, what if Churchill had refused to take over in 1940, what if Wever hadn’t died, what if the Heinkel 280 had been developed into a frontline fighter, and so on, off the top of my head I can think of dozens of key events that would have turned the course of the war.

 

Btw on a semi related note Adolf Gallands book ‘first and last’ is a very enjoyable read and details a lot of the key organisational issues the Luftwaffe faced. I also think it should be taught in management degrees as it is also a very inciteful account of how the high command ( read senior management) and the staff in the ground ( so to speak) totally failed to communicate effectively through the course of the war.

 

And do back to the He111.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Marklo

[Lewis95]

5 hours ago, Marklo said:

This a bit of a minefield, there are just so many turning points in the history of ww2. What if Chamberlain had sued for peace with Germany in 1939, what if The BEF had been overrun at Dunkirk, what if Churchill had refused to take over in 1940, what if Wever hadn’t died, what if the Heinkel 280 had been developed into a frontline fighter, and so on, off the top of my head I can think of dozens of key events that would have turned the course of the war.

 

Btw on a semi related note Adolf Gallands book ‘first and last’ is a very enjoyable read and details a lot of the key organisational issues the Luftwaffe faced. I also think it should be taught in management degrees as it is also a very inciteful account of how the high command ( read senior management) and the staff in the ground ( so to speak) totally failed to communicate effectively through the course of the war.

 

And do back to the He111.

 

Things could of indeed been very different. In regards to Adolf Gallands book, I've actually just started reading the sample chapters available to me on the Kindle App. I may well jump it to the top of the list but I've got quite the intimidating reading list at the moment including The Goebbells Diaries and the book by the Austrian painter himself (a gift from the other half). I blame Sven Hassell's books for my fascination with the machinations of Germany and her war machine from the 30's onwards but I've recently finished books by 2 Luftwaffe pilots (Duel Under the Stars being one of them) and both have the same undertone of desperation towards the end. With Gallands book, he sounds a bit like the standard employee who knows a helluva lot more about how things should work than the bosses themselves (i.e every store level retail worker I know). 

 

On the flip side of the coin, I've recently acquired a good few reference books for British aircraft from 1939 - 1945 and experiemental aircraft from '45 - '75. I would also add that Winkle Browns book is a must have read and does semi-show the maritime operations of the Luftwaffe. 

 

Back to the Heinkel & strategic bombers. They were all severely crippled by, in my opinion, the requirement to be capable of divebomb attacks. The He111 and He177 both had the capability to provide a strong medium bomber force. If the RLM had allowed the progression of the Me264 and Ju388 then the war in the air may of been considerably different. Thankfully, the goofed. 

[Marklo]

I think I have over 500 books in my kindle to read, I get through about fifty a year so…

 

Definitely the dive bombing requirement hobbled the HE 177 as well as the refusal to go with four separate engines.    At the time the technology to accurately bomb horizontally just didn’t exist but diving something like a he177 was insane. It is probably fair to say that many more He177s would have been needed if they had accepted this, but that said that did make 1500 of them so it was probably more about the dogma Han the resources. 
 

It’s a bit like the me262 as the Blitz Bomber, the plane was just too fast for the pilots to accurately bomb anything. 

[Lewis95]

5 hours ago, Marklo said:

I think I have over 500 books in my kindle to read, I get through about fifty a year so…

 

Definitely the dive bombing requirement hobbled the HE 177 as well as the refusal to go with four separate engines.    At the time the technology to accurately bomb horizontally just didn’t exist but diving something like a he177 was insane. It is probably fair to say that many more He177s would have been needed if they had accepted this, but that said that did make 1500 of them so it was probably more about the dogma Han the resources. 
 

It’s a bit like the me262 as the Blitz Bomber, the plane was just too fast for the pilots to accurately bomb anything. 

 

Indeed the engine requirement significantly derped the He177. However, contra-rotating props certainly worked well on the Gannet and Wyvern some years later so maybe there was merit there after all. The 262 as a fighter would likely of been too heavy and unreliably given the engines. However, as a ground attack gun platform, it was certainly formidable. The Ar234 had some success at the Ludendorf Bridge (Remagen) I believe? 

 

Was the He111 dive capable?

[Marklo]

Each of the engines in the He177 consisted  

of a pair of engines connected to a common gearbox connected to the prop. It was a flawed concept that no one managed to get to work. Rolls Royce tried it with the Vulture which was fitted to the Manchester bomber, they eventually gave up, the Manchester got 4 merlins and became the Lancaster; nuff said.

 

The  Gannet and Wyvern used ( I think) turboprops, a gas turbine driving the prop, a bit like an unducted axiflow turbojet, ( think airliner engine but without the front duct)

 

The 262 was at its best as an interceptor, if you read the Galland book it looks like the Luftwaffe came very close to making the strategic bombing of Germany too costly for the allies, if they had had the 262 in quantity in say 1943 ( not unfeasible) it would have changed the course of the war, although arguably it may just have prolonged it.

 

The Arado did have some success as a bomber but it really wasn’t big enough to make a difference, it’s forte was as a fast reconnaissance plane.

 

If you look at the likes of Luft 46 there were a number of dedicated jet powered ground attack planes in the works notably some Junkers Ju87 replacements in the works, that might have made a difference.
 

But again by that stage in the war the shortages of pilots and fuel  were  probably the biggest issues for the Luftwaffe, not equipment. ie the Me109k or the FW190d or the Me262 in the hands of a capable pilot could still hold their own against the allied types and manufacturing of airframes actually peaked in 1944. Again it’s comparable to the medium tank argument, if Jeschonnek had setup a proper pilot training program in 1940/41 and manufacturing had concentrated on a smaller number of types and perfecting them I think the strategic bombing of Germany wouldn’t have been so successful.

 

But again there are so many what ifs to WW2, I think the overall lesson is that no matter how brilliant they think they are politicians don’t make good generals. (Thankfully) Imagine if Hitler had deferred to Galland, Munstein and Speer, that would have been a pretty devastating line up.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Marklo

[Graham Boak]

The coupled engine concept wasn't a requirement, but something that Heinkel had been studying for some time.  Quite successfully.  I must admit that, despite it being repeated ad nauseam, I have been unable to find recognise a single feature of the He.177 that was delayed or affected by any dive bomber requirement.  Indeed, the airframe was considered structurally light for meeting the normal bomber requirements, let alone strengthened and increased in weight for dive bombing.  The main drawback was the engine and poor detailed design: this generation of large aircraft simply took a lot longer to get right than the production plans allowed.

 

Nothing wrong in principle with coupled engines in principle: any V engine can be seen as two coupled straight sixes, any multi-row radial as coupled single-row radials.  RR believed that the problem with the Vulture's crankshaft had been solved: the engine (together with the Exe) was cancelled because RR was overstretched and could not develop all the engines they had on hand.  The Merlin and Griffon took up all their short-medium term design and development capacity: the Eagle and Crecy promised more for the future.  The Sabre's problem had nothing to do with it being an H but with the metallurgy of sleeve-valves: once Bristol had solved this for the Hercules and Centaurus the technology was passed over.  Don't confuse them with contra-props: aircraft such as the Spitfire, Spiteful and Wyvern took both props from a single drive: the Gannet had two separate engines which could operate together or individually.  Contra-props solved the torque/gyroscopic problems of high power on a single-engined airframe, whilst providing reduced propeller diameters.  The particular problems with the DB606 and 610 were failures of DB to find answers within the limitations of metallurgy in the Third Reich, and failures of detail design  See also the Jumo 222, DB603, Jumo 213.  Making high power (2000hp+) in the early 1940s was a major problem for everyone who tried it.  Look at the recent book The Secret Horsepower Race for a much more detailed description.

 

The same problems applied to the German jets: the driver setting the operational timescale was not the airframe, nor any finger-pointing at Hitler.  There being nothing special about any of them, but the engines were not ready.  They were not capable of even limited production of short-life unreliable examples before mid 1944.  This problem again was rooted in German metallurgy, specifically (but not only) the lack of nickel due to the inability to import.  It has been claimed recently that the problems had been solved (or at least significantly reduced) by early 1945, but this is somewhat under-evidenced and too late.

 

There are, as pointed out above, a large number of factors that might have made some changes in the progress of the war, but these are rarely actually possible in the conditions of the time, and there are considerable doubts about their true significance even if they had..  None of them would have addressed the real reasons why Germany lost.  It was outnumbered, out-produced, out-funded, and largely outpaced in technology.  I know this is not quite what Luft '46 enthusiasts believe.

[Marklo]

23 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

None of them would have addressed the real reasons why Germany lost.  It was outnumbered, out-produced, out-funded, and largely outpaced in technology. 

I’m inclined to believe that it was purely out manufactured and out resourced. It was the first real economic  war. That German joke that a Tiger was worth 9 ( I think) Sherman’s but the allies always had 10 rings true. The outcome could have been different had the Germans been more focussed and smarter, but like Japan they just didn’t have the wherewithal to defeat the allies in a strait up slugging match.  I’m also inclined to think they were at least equal in technology, but the Germans spread too few resources too thin across research and development programmes.
 

Afaik the he177 suffered from engine fires ( it was nicknamed the flaming coffin) owing to the compact and leaky nature of the DB600 and I think that the twin configuration was mandated by the dive bombing requirements, do yes it didn’t directly cause delays. But yes if the engines had been workable it would have been a different story.

 

I must admit although I’m fascinated with the history of the period and all the what ifs, I do find some of the luft 46 crew etc a bit disturbing. The Nazi state perpetrated  many of the biggest collective crimes against humanity and by the standards of any righthinking individual needed to be eliminated. But again I do find the history fascinating.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Marklo