Fairey Albacore - All Black Profile Question (Answered)

[Tweener]

Having seen that Special Hobby is set to release a new tool 1/72 Albacore in the following months, I was curious as to the accuracy of a profile and decal option suggested by Print Scale:

 

Option 11 suggests that some RCAF Albacores were painted in overall black, and I have seen a model or two built in this scheme as well. My question concerns the accuracy of this suggestion, as I can't see any reason why Albacores would be repainted so late in their service life / as they were withdrawn from operational use. I also can't imagine that the Albacore would have operated as a Torpedo bomber at such a late stage in the war, so I'm curious as to what the aircraft may have been used for if the scheme is indeed accurate. Insertion of agents would be handled by Lysanders, and recon could have been accomplished by far more capable types.

 

Any help is appreciated,

Tweener

Edited December 30, 2020 by Tweener

[EwenS]

415 (Canadian) squadron operated a flight of Albacores between Oct 1943 and July 1944 on nocturnal anti shipping operations in the southern North Sea / Channel area. That flight became 119 squadron RAF in July 1944, continuing to use Albacores until Feb 1945. Swordfish III joined the squadron in Jan 1945 to replace the Albacores until the squadron disbanded in May 1945. Both squadrons used NH codes. The main targets were E-boats & R-boats and later midget subs. The main weapons were bombs and depth charges not torpedoes.

 

Photos of the Albacores are rare but here is an example.

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/albacore/albacore-119-belgium/

 

Photos of the Swordfish are more common

https://www.key.aero/article/stringbags-over-scheldt

 

Edit:- the camouflage of these aircraft was overall black.

Edited December 30, 2020 by EwenS

[HOUSTON]

Ewen thats interesting. Both aircrafts black.

Now that's probably  rare.

[dogsbody]

From the IWM:

 

Ground crew manoeuvre a Fairey Albacore Mark I of No. 119 Squadron RAF Detachment into wind at B65/ Maldeghem, Belgium. The aircraft has been loaded with 250-lb GP bombs for a night anti-shipping patrol off the Dutch coast.

 

 

 

Chris

[Ed Russell]

A higher resolution picture might show whether those lines on the upper surface are demarcation areas or not. The upper surface of the tailplane is noticeably lighter than the Night fuselage area behind it.

I have to agree most (but not all) models (and profiles) show overall Night finish.

[Blimpyboy]

Do you think there might be a possibility the upper surfaces could have been camouflaged?

 

I am speculating, based on the top wing in the pictures above (then again, my eyes aren't what they used to be), but also from info regarding Swordfishes, mentioned in this thread: 

 

Possibly something to ponder from here, too (bearing in mind that it's an extrapolation of sorts, from Swordfish aircraft conducting similar missions at the same time): 

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Graham Boak]

It looks like camouflage to me.  Given that this would then be completely standard, as opposed to an almost-unique all-black scheme for an RAF bomber, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't camouflaged.

[alt-92]

13 hours ago, dogsbody said:

 

Looks to be pretty cold, wet & soggy weather. The tires are rather shiny, wing surfaces almost gloss-like, and the ground crew are well-bundled up.

The autumn and winter of 1944 was dismal.

 

[EwenS]

I was looking at some of the photos of Albacores on Malta 1942/43 that were supposed to be TSS upper surfaces and black undersides. The contrast between upper camouflaged and lower black surfaces seems very much greater than in the above photo. So I’m inclined towards overall black with signs of weathering.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Malta of course would be in much stronger sunlight than the "dismal winter" described above in the south-eastern UK.  That should be sufficient to explain the difference seen in the photos.

 

The question about an all-black finish remains "Why?"

[Tweener]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It looks like camouflage to me.  Given that this would then be completely standard, as opposed to an almost-unique all-black scheme for an RAF bomber, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't camouflaged.

In a way it does to me as well, but I think the appearance of Camo may just be the result of the weather, as I would expect the top of the bottom wings to be painted as well and to my eye, they only look wet.

[dogsbody]

Something from Carl Vincent:

 

1.         I have found the recent postings concerning the Albacores of 415 Squadron RCAF and their camouflage of considerable interest. Personally, I believe that all-over black is correct. In the absence of primary source documentation and even a moderate number of photos the correct answer is still up for grabs.

 

2.         I attach the only photo in my collection showing one of these aircraft in flight and with an operational load. I leave the identification of the finish to the experts. However, what appear to be overpainted stripes on the starboard upper wing may be significant and date the photo as post-invasion.

 

3.         I am not certain about the identification of the underwing stores. Could it be smoke equipment? Certainly, on the last day of Albacore operations, 11 July 1944, the squadron flew 12 smoke laying sorties.

 

4.         415 Squadron considered itself the Cinderella unit of the RCAF due to its equipment and employment. The high point of its Albacore operations took place in the early hours of 24 May 1944 when an Albacore flown by F/O Brasnett attacked and sank the 924/1290 ton German torpedo boat Greif. Later in July the squadron was transferred to 6 Group RCAF in Bomber Command where it flew Halifax III’s and VII’s to the end of the war.

 

 

Carl

 

 

PHOTO REMOVED AS IT IS OWNED BY SOMEONE ELSE. IF YOU HAVE MADE A COPY OF THIS IMAGE, PLEASE DELETE IT.

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Carl

[Carl V]

Thanks, Chris for doing that posting for me.

                This is in response to Graham’s query “Why?” anent the black camouflage.

At that period, some, at least, considered the best nighttime camouflage to be overall black and the great majority of 415’s operations were nocturnal. For example, during the E-boat hunts, the Albacores would be vectored onto the target by coastal radar until they could pick it up on their own ASV sets, follow up to visual contact and then, following up the wake, attack from astern, usually using shallow-setting depth charges which were deemed to be more effective on such small craft than taking a chance on hitting it with a conventional bomb.

Certainly, it made sense to indulge in night operations when this is when most German shipping made passage and when one considers how hideously vulnerable the Albacores would be to fighters and particularly flak at that stage of the war, so that some kind of night camouflage was logical.

Carl.      

[Graham Boak]

I entirely agree about the need for night camouflage, but I would rule out overall black on precisely the grounds that by then the RAF were well aware that overall black was NOT necessarily the best colour for night operations - except perhaps when searchlights were involved, and then it had to be gloss.  Had anyone so believed it then there still would have been no reason to paint the upper surface when the enemy was sitting in the sea.  However, both the RAF Coastal Command and FAA camouflage for night operations had been black undersides below with TSS upper surfaces for the past six years (OK, S1E upper surfaces at first for the FAA, but the same colours).  Why should one squadron suddenly decide off its own bat that this was unsuitable?  And would the command authority have appreciated it?

 

I find one simple rule helps in these matters: unless there is very good evidence to the contrary, assume that the standard scheme is in use. I don't think that photo is strong enough evidence (quite the contrary) and cannot imagine the reason for painting the upper surface black.  Unless they just had nothing else to do one day?

[JWM]

Still it was in military service where nothing happens without order. So in historical files there should be traces of orders about painting that or another way... Any archive research result on that?

Regards

J-W

 

[Ed Russell]

31 minutes ago, Carl V said:

At that period, some, at least, considered the best nighttime camouflage to be overall black

With respect I would disagree completely with that. Experience years before had led to a change from overall black nightfighters to  a somewhat different scheme. That second photo, while of great interest, is too murky to prove anything.

[Graham Boak]

Let's not go overboard on this - the US still preferred black, but a gloss finish after trials in the US had shown that it couldn't be seen in searchlights.  Honest... and no, I don't believe quite that either, but it did help.  A rough matt finish reflected more light back to the ground, making the bomber stand out as a white object.  A gloss surface reflected more light away to the sides - nowadays this is a principle of stealth aircraft but at radar frequencies rather than visible ones.   For this reason Bomber Command similarly preferred a gloss black at this stage.  However E-boats wouldn't have batteries of searchlights.

 

The night fighter Medium Sea Grey (or RLM76) was for air-to-air, and hence not totally relevant here, except that it was introduced because trials proved that a night sky is never as dark as a black painted aircraft which appears as a silhouette.  The same would have applied to Albacores attacking E-boats but I can see why vulnerable crews may well have wanted something darker for morale purposes if nothing else.  No other good reason applies other than black undersurfaces was the ruling for night bombers in Coastal Command and the FAA from day 1 of the war and remained unchanged.  But this is all about the undersides.  The E boats do not see the upper surfaces, and German night fighters were not a problem.  There was simply no need to overpaint the top,  It wasn't thought necessary despite more-or-less continuous CC night operations throughout the war - and come to that FAA Albacores from Malta or in the Western Desert.  So why in this single case here?

 

Actually, given that the RAF had long used NIVO (Night Invisible Varnish Orfordness) as an overall night camouflage, and Dark Slate Grey was reputedly chosen because of its similarity to NIVO, it might have been more effective to retain TSS but apply it overall.  But then there are lots of things people do despite a lack of sense to it.

 

 

[gingerbob]

Leaving aside reasoning for a moment, what do you make of these photos?  (Links provided so you can zoom in, etc)

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205448821

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205448823

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205448822

 

Another:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205218973

 

Not the same unit, but it sure looks like a coat of a dull, dark layer, with some scuffing evident where you might expect to find such.

 

Whatever the reasoning, isn't it true that some late Swordfish are painted overall black?  Would they have been doing something moderately similar, or at least in a similar environment?

 

bob

Edited December 31, 2020 by gingerbob

[Ed Russell]

This one looks like the colour demarcation runs just below the windscreen line.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205448823

 

[JWM]

It could be interesting to note the post of @tonyot about "all black" Swordfish 

 

Regards

J-W

 

[tonyot]

On 12/31/2020 at 7:03 PM, dogsbody said:

Something from Carl Vincent:

 

1.         I have found the recent postings concerning the Albacores of 415 Squadron RCAF and their camouflage of considerable interest. Personally, I believe that all-over black is correct. In the absence of primary source documentation and even a moderate number of photos the correct answer is still up for grabs.

 

2.         I attach the only photo in my collection showing one of these aircraft in flight and with an operational load. I leave the identification of the finish to the experts. However, what appear to be overpainted stripes on the starboard upper wing may be significant and date the photo as post-invasion.

 

3.         I am not certain about the identification of the underwing stores. Could it be smoke equipment? Certainly, on the last day of Albacore operations, 11 July 1944, the squadron flew 12 smoke laying sorties.

 

4.         415 Squadron considered itself the Cinderella unit of the RCAF due to its equipment and employment. The high point of its Albacore operations took place in the early hours of 24 May 1944 when an Albacore flown by F/O Brasnett attacked and sank the 924/1290 ton German torpedo boat Greif. Later in July the squadron was transferred to 6 Group RCAF in Bomber Command where it flew Halifax III’s and VII’s to the end of the war.

 

 

Carl

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Carl

Hiya Chris/ Carl,.... you can actually see the demarcation line of the upper surface TSS running from the lower edge of the windscreen down to the below the mid centre of the engine cowling,....as seen on other pics of the same units Albacores,..... you can also see the demarcation running below the level of the canopy glazing,......and as you have mentioned,....traces of D-Day stripes on the upper wings! The famous `all black' Swordfish also show signs of having TSS upper surfaces too,.... I did cover it in an old post,.... which has been reproduced by others on this thread.

The underwing stores are indeed smoke laying equipment. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by tonyot

[gingerbob]

Hmm... Since 415 mutated into 119, I looked at their ORBs a bit (not exhaustively).  Out of curiosity, I looked at Jan/Feb '45, when Swordfish replaced Albacore:

 

No smoking gun yet, but

 

At Bircham Newton, 3 January "Seven Swordfish, painted gleaming white, circled the 'drome about lunch time and landed - first material sign of the much heralded conversion.  They were immediately made over to the CTO as there were thousands of modifications to be made on them before they would be suitable for this squadron."

 

In Belgium on 16 Jan: "Spare aircrew got their hands out of their pockets during the afternoon, painting the slightly revised roundels on the aircraft."

 

If the Swordfish arrived painted white, that might explain an all black repaint, as easier than having to apply camouflage colours on upper surfaces.  That doesn't help with the Albacores, though.  (Those "white" Swordfish might have had camo on top of fuselage/upper surface of wings, though.)  [Note: I found a further comment or two about the mod process, but no mention of repainting the Swordfish before they arrive for ops.]

 

Edit: This photo certainly seems to show a line down the leading edge, rather than "all black"?

 

Edit (again): Oops, also meant to say that I found a web page with some information and photos of 119's Swordfish, here. (Well down the page- I recommend searching for "Swordfish".)

 

And Here's the (IWM) Albacore photo, in case anyone wanted to zoom in.

Edited January 1, 2021 by gingerbob

[AWFK10]

The Swordfish would likely have been in the standard late war FAA scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces and White under surfaces, including the fuselage sides. The scheme was designed so that only the white surfaces would be visible to an observer on the ground or on the deck of a submarine, causing the aircraft to merge into the sky when viewed from a distance, hence the observer at Bircham Newton describing the aircraft as "gleaming white". The late 1944 issue of AP 2656A reproduced in the RAF Museum British Aviation Colours book specifies a "Special Coastal Duties Scheme B" with Extra Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces, Night under surfaces and a high demarcation line similar to the one that ex-FAA Swordfish would have carried. To avoid unnecessary repainting, it would make sense for the white under surfaces to be repainted Night and the upper surfaces left as they were.

 

 

[fubar57]

This doesn't add to the blackness but the last page lists the aircraft in 415 and 119 Squadrons by serial number and codes

https://www.docdroid.net/c83ojgK/albacore-in-action-air-enthusiast-2006-09-10-125-pdf#page=5

Edited January 1, 2021 by fubar57

[dogsbody]

7 hours ago, tonyot said:

Hiya Chris/ Carl,.... you can actually see the demarcation line of the upper surface TSS running from the lower edge of the windscreen down to the below the mid centre of the engine cowling,....as seen on other pics of the same units Albacores,..... you can also see the demarcation running below the level of the canopy glazing,......and as you have mentioned,....traces of D-Day stripes on the upper wings! The famous `all black' Swordfish also show signs of having TSS upper surfaces too,.... I did cover it in an old post,.... which has been reproduced by others on this thread.

The underwing stores are indeed smoke laying equipment. 

 

 

Tony, could you please delete the photo from this quote. It is the property of someone else and Carl would like it removed from the forum.

 

 

 

Chris, for Carl.