P-51 Help,paint scheme,wheels,Iwo Jima.

[DraganChe]

Hello friends,

 

I would like to make P-51 of Eduard in 1/48 scale, limitied edition ,aircraft which was flown on Iwo Jima.

So , Eduard is giving brassin wheels in one type of pattern.And my question is, can I put on my model kit any type of pattern of wheels for P-51,ie: how often was tyres changed on P-51,is it very important which pattern is on wheels?Also a photo of specific aircraft would we very helpfull it is aircraft:

P-51D-20, 44-63733, flown by Maj. Paul W. Imig, CO of 72nd FS, 21st FG, 7th AF, IwoJima, March 1945.

 

Thank you in advance.

Edited December 30, 2020 by DraganChe

[Fifer54]

I have just finished building a 1/48 Monogram P-51B, and a HobbyBoss 1/48 P-51D. After losing a wheel from the P-51B, a kind person sent me wheels from a Tamiya P-51D.

All the different wheels from the three kits were more or less detailed versions of obviously the same wheel. The tyres of all the kits had different patterns.

I finished up putting the HobbyBoss wheels on the Monogram P-51B and the Tamiya wheels on the HobbyBoss model. I think all Mustang wheels were (basically) the same, and there

were many different tyre tread patterns used. I even remember seeing a photo somewhere on the internet which showed two differently-patterned tyres on the same aircraft, so I think

tyre tread pattern doesn't matter.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Dragan

If you are building North American P-51 D, 44-63984, Margaret IV, there is a photo of this aircraft, taken in May 1945. It shows her pilot, Major Jim Tapp, checking fuses on plane's HVAR rockets. Her starboard main wheel is in clear view, and its tyre has diamond pattern. Cheers

Jure

[DraganChe]

Thank you for answer,but I still dont get it...can I use any of pattern on wheels,for how long time one set of tyres last on aircraft?Does it mean that if photo is with one type of it,that aircraft was with them durring whole time while it was used during WWII or tires were changed frequently?

Edited December 30, 2020 by DraganChe

[Black Knight]

Basically;

1. the wheel, the solid metal part was slightly different on the B/C than the D

2. aeroplane tyres do not last very long. They are changed frequently.

3. tread  choice is dependant on where the aeroplane is operating from, eg, heavy treaded tyres in the Aleutians where the runways were often flooded, smooth tread in England or Normandy where hard earth, tarmac or psp gave a harder runway surface

4. the photo mentioned is one moment in time, 1/60 or 1/125 of a second, in the life of that P51

5. Use what ever tyre tread you want, unless you are trying to copy a photograph exactly

[DraganChe]

I have found this photos of aircraft which was at Iwo Jima,and it's wheels had pointed cross tread pattern,but I dont want to make that aircraft.I want to make some other aircraft which was also on Iwo Jima.But there is no existing photo from close to see wheels of that specific aircraft which model kit I would like to make.So is there any chance that also this aircraft had wheels in same pattern?

[Black Knight]

Just now, DraganChe said:

I have found this photos of aircraft which was at Iwo Jima,and it's wheels had pointed cross tread pattern,but I dont want to make that aircraft.I want to make some other aircraft which was also on Iwo Jima.But there is no existing photo from close to see wheels of that specific aircraft which model kit I would like to make.So is there any chance that also this aircraft had wheels in same pattern?

yes, most likely it had

[DraganChe]

Ok,so here is photo of aircraft from Iwo Jima where is clearly visible pointed cross pattern:

I want to make this one:

Will it be wrong to put pointed cross pattern of wheels on it?

Thank you.

[Work In Progress]

16 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

2. aeroplane tyres do not last very long. They are changed frequently.

To give some colour to this, if you are flying multiple missions in a day on a hard or abrasive runway with a heavily loaded aircraft, you could easily kill the left tyre on a P-51 in under a week. The right tyre  might last a few weeks or a month. It was absolutely common to see different tread patterns on left and right wheels. If you don't have a photograph of your specific aircraft on a specific date you want to model it, then your question has no real answer. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Work In Progress

[DraganChe]

hmmm...thank you bro. This really had put some colour in this. I just don't want to make model kit wrong. The best thing would be if there is any more photos of "Dede Lou".

[DraganChe]

14 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

To give some colour to this, if you are flying multiple missions in a day on a hard or abrasive runway with a heavily loaded aircraft, you could easily kill the left tyre on a P-51 in under a week. The right tyre  might last a few weeks or a month. It was absolutely common to see different tread patterns on left and right wheels. If you don't have a photograph of your specific aircraft on a specific date you want to model it, then your question has no real answer. 

The aircraft which I want to make is:

P-51D-20, 44-63733, flown by Maj. Paul W. Imig, CO of 72nd FS, 21st FG, 7th AF, IwoJima, March 1945.

I tried to google photos of that aircraft...only one photo...if someone have any more of it I would be very greatfull.

 

[11bravo]

The “cross” pattern tire was by far, the most common type used on those Mustangs.  

[Duncan B]

Looking at the surface they were flying from in your photo I would say the tyres wouldn't last very long and that they would want to be using the (diamond) treaded tyres. The other thing to take into consideration is the supply chain, it is most likely that one type of tyre tread would be supplied to a Unit or even to a particular area of the theatre taking the operating conditions into account. I don't think they would be carrying any stock of smooth tyres if they were always operating from rough surfaces. 

When all is said and done it is your model to build as you like and nobody can prove that you are wrong as tyres would be changed so often. When I am building models with treaded tyres I don't even worry if I lose a bit of the tread pattern when cleaning up seam lines as I know from my own experience that is more common to see part worn tyres on a flight line than to see brand new tyres (the poor tech working in the tyre bay and the stores guys wouldn't be able to keep up with demand for new tyres if the Lineys decided to change every tyre on every aircraft at the same time).

 

Duncan B

[DraganChe]

15 hours ago, 11bravo said:

The “cross” pattern tire was by far, the most common type used on those Mustangs.  

Thank you kind sir.

[DraganChe]

3 hours ago, Duncan B said:

Looking at the surface they were flying from in your photo I would say the tyres wouldn't last very long and that they would want to be using the (diamond) treaded tyres. The other thing to take into consideration is the supply chain, it is most likely that one type of tyre tread would be supplied to a Unit or even to a particular area of the theatre taking the operating conditions into account. I don't think they would be carrying any stock of smooth tyres if they were always operating from rough surfaces. 

When all is said and done it is your model to build as you like and nobody can prove that you are wrong as tyres would be changed so often. When I am building models with treaded tyres I don't even worry if I lose a bit of the tread pattern when cleaning up seam lines as I know from my own experience that is more common to see part worn tyres on a flight line than to see brand new tyres (the poor tech working in the tyre bay and the stores guys wouldn't be able to keep up with demand for new tyres if the Lineys decided to change every tyre on every aircraft at the same time).

 

Duncan B

Thank you very much.As I have shown in previous post here,the 'cross" pattern was on aircrafts on Iwo Jima,and "11bravo" also say that the arifield surface is for that type of wheels...so I will trust you gentleman.

[DraganChe]

Ok,so we have solved question about tires.

 

 Now,question No.2:

Was there any rule about nose art/nose writings,ie: war names of the P-51,which was in Pacific theatre?

 Is there any rule for placing artistic writings,pictures on the nose section,was it only on one side of the aircraft or there was on both side of the aircraft?

For aircraft which model kit I would like to make,Eduard gave nose art for both side of the aircraft.So,is there any chance or any photo which can confirm that this specific aircraft had that nose art on both side of the aircraft,or to say simple,I need photo of this aircraft from oposite side as it is presented in this photo.

Thank you.

[Black Knight]

The nose art could extend from under the exhausts, as in your photo, right back to under the forward part under the windscreen

It could be on the port side, starboard side or both sides,

Both sides could be the same or usually, the port was the pilot's and the starboard side was for the ground-crew chief's artwork, so then they'd be different

[DraganChe]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

The nose art could extend from under the exhausts, as in your photo, right back to under the forward part under the windscreen

It could be on the port side, starboard side or both sides,

Both sides could be the same or usually, the port was the pilot's and the starboard side was for the ground-crew chief's artwork, so then they'd be different

Thank you.

But please take a look of this aircraft, which was also on Iwo Jima,it is:

P-51D-20, 44-63483, flown by Maj. Robert W August 1945 . Moore, CO of 45th FS, 15th FG, 7th AF, Iwojima

On this aircraft it is clearly visible that nose art inscription is written on both side.

 

 And that is the main reason why I am asking was it the same case with "Dede Lou"?

I have a lot of reference materials,books,etc...but I have manage to find only one photo of this aircraft which I want to present as a model kit?

Does anybody have seen any photo of this aircraft, from both side on any photo, in any book,or any magazine?I know that there exists copyrights but,if that photo exists,would one be kind to at least share where I can look for it?

 

[DraganChe]

Ok,so there is no answer for previous question.

So gentleman please take a look on Eduard's presentation of these Mustangs from Iwo Jima.

 

So here it is,first one is:

P-51D-20, 44-63733, flown by Maj. Paul W. Imig, CO of 72nd FS, 21st FG, 7th AF, IwoJima, March 1945.

How the crack Eduard knows that this aircraft had nose art from both side?I search for over a ten days in a lot of,and I mean A LOT OF literature, and many more references, and I couldn't find a single photo of this aircraft from the oposite side where is clearly visible that this aircraft had nose art on both sides. All I could find is that single photo, which I have shown you in upper posts.

So how they do know it?

 

Second is:

P-51D-20, 44-63483, flown by Maj. Robert W August 1945 . Moore, CO of 45th FS, 15th FG, 7th AF, Iwojima

On this color profile, Eduard have presented to us late variant of paint scheme of Maj.August's "Stinger VII"

Also I have a lot of photo of this aircraft, but in this late paint scheme only one photo.How the ... also Eduard knows tat this aircraft in late paint scheme had covers of wheel bay painted in green.There is not a single photo of it...please if someone have it,let it share with here,and it will also mean a lot to other P-51 enthusiasts.

 

 Also it will solve mistery of the accurasy of Eduard's presentation of color profiles.

 Thank you.

 

 

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Dragan

Well, here is one photo, found on this Pinterest page. This photo can also be found in Carl Molesworth's book Very long range P-51 mustang units of the Pacific war (Osprey). There is also another photo of Stinger VII in new paint scheme or more accurately, her aft fuselage and tail. On that photo of four aircraft, Stinger VII is one of two Mustangs in the new scheme, with other two planes carrying the old markings. Cheers

Jure

P.S.: In the same book there is a photo of Major Imig, standing in front of his 44-63733 Dede Lou. The photo shows only port side of the aircraft's nose, so one cannot say much about the aircraft's name on the starboard side. However, to answer your original question, Dede Lou has tyres with diamond pattern.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Jure Miljevic
photo removed, text edited, P.S. added

[72modeler]

I would imagine, at that stage of the war, that the diamond and block tread patterns would be the most commonly fitted, and there are photos that show Mustangs  with one type on one strut and another type on the other, which was a common practice. I would imagine that many different tire manufacturers made 'spec' tires for each aircraft type during the war, with each maker's tires being interchangeable except for different tread patterns, much like the old days when a new car in the U.S. could have Uniroyal, Goodyear, General, Firestone, etc. tires  that were the correct size and specification, but differed in tread pattern. To answer the poster's query, you can go with either type, as surely during its lifetime on Iwo, the Mustang you want to build t went through several sets of tires. Finding a photo that shows the tires would be the best reference, but it doesn't look like any have come to light.

Mike

[DraganChe]

Thank you gentleman.

So I am 100% sure that "Stinger VII" had cross tread pattern,so I will go with this paint scheme.

I have check references which Mr.Jure have told me,and I can not find picture of "Stinger VII" in late paint scheme where it is visible that wheel bay doors are painted in green,the upper section closer to wing,like Eduard have made in it's profile.

Little help about those main gear doors...please... 🙂

[DraganChe]

Does anybody know did really "Stinger VII" in late paint scheme had green color on doors of wheel bay like Eduard have shown? Maybe any photo of other aircrafts which had same paint scheme which was together in his F.G. and then when his aircraft get this late variant of paint scheme,it should look like all others aircrafts from the same F.G.

On this photo it is cleary visible that there is other aircraft in same colors,but gear door can not be visible...Anybody knows anything about this situation?

Edited January 5, 2021 by DraganChe

[Werdna]

30 minutes ago, DraganChe said:

On this photo it is cleary visible that there is other aircraft in same colors,but gear door can not be visible...Anybody knows anything about this situation?

 

I may have misunderstood the question - but there are two pictures up thread which show the same aircraft apparently without the green painted doors.

[DraganChe]

1 hour ago, Werdna said:

 

I may have misunderstood the question - but there are two pictures up thread which show the same aircraft apparently without the green painted doors.

Yes sir,this photos are early variant of "Stinger VII",and on those photos there is no green color on cover of wheel bay.

Here is photo in late variant:

And here is profile of Eduard how they present this late variant:

Eduard is showing that covers of main wheel bay should be painted in green color,also pylons for HVAR in same green.I think that this is wrong.

So,I am in quest to find "Stinger VII" or any other aircraft from the same squadron that had applied late paint scheme,and to see was there green color on covers of wheel bay doors?I am 100% sure that ground crew didnt painted pylons for HVAR...it was never done.SO I wonder was it the same situation with doors of wheel bay?The so called "late" paint scheme for this aircrafts was simple,and that was the purpose of it,not to comlicate things.

Also I dont like when model kit producers tell us to :NOTE THE GREEN PAINTED UNDERCARRIAGE DOORS...

Why they say this and there is not a single picture of this aircraft with green undercarriage doors and pylons for HVAR.What is going on here...I understand artistic freedom,but this should be as much posible presentation of real aircraft...

Edited January 5, 2021 by DraganChe