Help Needed... ww2 Russian Colors

[Massimo Tessitori]

Quote

This photo of the rear fuselage of the MIG-3 shows the AMT-4 and AMT-7

 

I respectfully disagree with this statement. This plane was built around January 1941 and had a prewar paint scheme. AMT paints were not still in use, they became standard only after the war outbreak in summer 1941.

According to the known standards, the colors of this plane should be AII green and AII light blue, originally glossy.

One can debate if the paints on the metallic parts are the same or some similar ones with different chemistry as A-18f and A-19f. The metallic parts often appear lighter than the wooden parts on wartime bw photos, even if seems that this wasn't relevable on the pieces of MiG-3 in the Finnish museum. Perhaps they are the same paints both on metallic and wooden parts, but they aged with different rate at first to arrive at a similar point after 80 years.

Regards

Massimo

[Jochen Barett]

On 30/12/2020 at 18:35, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

I wish I could find that other article shared here a year or two ago about the He 115 or Arado 196 dragged out of a fjord which he wrote. With similar confirmation biasing and pseudoscience he sanded some paint off the wreck, swilled the dust in water and stuck a pH stick in it, thinking that getting the exact pH of seawater was proof positive of a specific paint composition and therefore colour. It was remarkably absurd.

Straight from the donkey's mouth: https://heinkel115.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Rapport-fra-Kjetil-Aakra-he115_paint.pdf

 

I still wonder if any proper alkyd enamel paint will be recognisable by the pH - and how often you are testing the pH of your ENAMEL paints (be it wet or dried and powderized)!

[Massimo Tessitori]

Not surprisingly, all the samples obtained by Him have the same pH: greens, greys and blue.  If this test doesn't allow not even to distinguish the hue, what useful information could it give?

[Jochen Barett]

1 hour ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Not surprisingly, all the samples obtained by Him have the same pH: greens, greys and blue.  If this test doesn't allow not even to distinguish the hue, what useful information could it give?

I'm no expert, so I do not have the faintest idea (but I did attend some chemistry lessons at school).

 

On the other hand, if you put a pistol to my head and politely asked me to analyse paint found on an airplane I might try several different solvents to see if the paint does react to any of them (and make a comparison to known paints) this may lead to some sort of conclusion regarding paint types on metal surfaces or wood or doped linen and I might feel like heating / burning a small sample (just for the fun of it and maybe in order to draw conclusions regarding yellowing of the binder).

 

I would expect alkyd based paint (moderate reaction to some solvents) to act different from phenolic resin (no reaction to any solvent in my arsenal expected) or nitrocellulose (good reaction to one or the other solvent). And maybe I could isolate some pigment(s) if the paint reacted to solvent and put the pigment under a microscope (maybe ad acid or a base, maybe a little chlorine, hydrogen peroxide ... and see what happens).

 

But I think one of my very last ideas would be to measure the pH of anything recovered from the sea after 50 years.

 

When it comes to making a plastic model (and not win a war) I might just use some paint that comes close and maybe add a little white, yellow, black, blue or brown to it so that it looks OK (and avoid using Humbrol 30 straight from the tin on all my planes and tanks when some "dark green" is requested, just to have some variation (put smiley here)). Even in an environtment where RAL 6014 was prescribed for "everything" there was some variation - more than any proper modeller would tolerate.

[DLinevitch]

More old staff.

Most likely, this fragment was cut off from the rudder DB-3 or DB-3f. All other Soviet bombers are unsuitable for a number of factors.

 

Well, here it is already written that this is from the I-16.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by DLinevitch

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Psy, 

interesting images. Are they from Ebay?

[DLinevitch]

3 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi Psy, 

interesting images. Are they from Ebay?

Hi, Massimo :) 

This is not from ebay, unfortunately I cannot tell the exact source, it was a long time ago, if my memory serves me, some German collector showed it.

 

More staff.

SB.

Chassis door, AE-9 light gray paint.

 

Internals, A-14

 

Landing rockets, black heat resistant paint mayby MB-6 or 2318

 

Tie tape for engine hood covers, unpainted stainless steel

 

Exhaust pipes, heat-resistant black paint (MB-6 or 2318)?

 

Link collector-links ejector of the front turret, unpainted stainless steel

 

And one of the tails from my collection

Edited January 9, 2021 by DLinevitch

[DLinevitch]

>I made a post to the wrong discussion by mistake, please sorry, it should have been here - 

 

Friends, do you think only westerns make the wrong colors for russian related staff?

This last year's shame was massively discussed on russian part of Facebook, but the authors, after being forced to confess their incompetence, do not even consider themselves wrong.  "We are artists, we see it that way".

 

 

Source:

https://www.facebook.com/marzdosaaf/posts/642488466336820

 

I had a conversation with this Albert, the author of these wonderful colors, in the end I managed to squeeze out of him a confession that the colors were taken from the wreckage of real planes, but!
1. Paint degradation was not taken into account.

2. They didn't do chemical analysis from samples.
3. They did not conduct any serious research on the subject at all.
4. They have not attracted any well-known expert in this field.
5. They allegedly consulted Mikhail Maslov. Which, although a well-known historian and author of monographs on the I-16, is not a recognized specialist in real life VVS paints, мoreover, there are many wrong color schemes in his books.

Edited January 9, 2021 by DLinevitch

[dragonlanceHR]

I could cry 😞

[VolkerR.]

I am just building Zvezda´s La-5FN in 1/48.

I would like to know if the grey/dark grey scheme of 1944 was hard or soft edged.

 

Thank you

Volker

[DLinevitch]

13 hours ago, VolkerR. said:

I am just building Zvezda´s La-5FN in 1/48.

I would like to know if the grey/dark grey scheme of 1944 was hard or soft edged.

 

Thank you

Volker

Soft only

Edited January 10, 2021 by DLinevitch

[Beazer]

Lots of interpretation to the modeler but the basics really are simple.  just tough sorting out what the basics are.

 

[DLinevitch]

More, DB-3, DB-3F, Il-4.

 

This is DB-3 wing, a very rare "worms camo", although the paint has mostly destroed, you can get an idea.

 

M-88 cylinder, typical painting for all types, from M-85 to M-88B. Heat resistant glossy black.

 

This is Il-4 navigator's instruments module, matte black, and interior A-14.

 

This is mounting bracket for pilot (or navigator,) main compass from DB-3F, you can see an alternative interior blue(sky) that was quite common on prewar/early war aircrafts (not only DB-3).

 

This is part from Il4 1944 circa, dorsal gunner's door, matte black.

 

This is a very unexpected discovery, it was not previously known that the open elements of the cocpits could be painted white, in the picture the seat of the gunner from the DB-3 or IL-4

 

This is a high pressure air bottle, also painted white which is very unusual.

 

The RSB radio set from the Il-4, you can see how colorful it is.

 

Machine gun sleeve from DB3 & Il-4, stainless steel

 

Another unusual thing, this is a movement limiter for large-caliber bombs, they are usually black, but this bright yellow, this large piece of iron was inserted into the wing behind the bomb and fixed the tail of the bomb with the other end so that it would not wobble in flight, a rather large and noticeable detail for a modeler.

 

Parts of M-88 engine, You can see the perfectly preserved colors of the various aggregates.

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by DLinevitch

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Psy, 

really great photos. Thank you very much for sharing them. 

Is the inside of the door of SB of the same grey of the outside? If so, AE-9 is darker than I expected. 

The turquoise paint of the compass seems similar to the inside of the I-16 in the Chkalow Museum. 

[DLinevitch]

On 10/01/2021 at 13:53, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi Psy, 

really great photos. Thank you very much for sharing them. 

Is the inside of the door of SB of the same grey of the outside? If so, AE-9 is darker than I expected. 

The turquoise paint of the compass seems similar to the inside of the I-16 in the Chkalow Museum. 

Yes, SB fotos I maked myself, AE-9 quite different from A-14, with the AE-9 actually having a subtle bluish tint. The photos were taken in a light forest twilight, it is possible that in the bright sun it would have been different, and we must not forget that this paint was lying around for 70 years, who knows how it changed color, the original chip with a description of the recipe has not yet been found in the archives.

 

There is no living space on the museum I-16, so I would not be guided by it. Damn it, it is still not even known what kind of plane it is. Some people called it as Type 5, but it is definitely not Type 5.

You've known me for a long time, that's why I post here only genuine samples, because it is impossible to confirm the authenticity on museum ones. 

 

More staff.

This is ammo belt for 12,7мм turret, As far as I can remember, the links for all types of heavy turrets were used the same, so these photos can be used for everything. It is still unpainted stainless steel and is severely darkened by battle damage and exposure to the environment. 

 

Here is an incredibly rare find, a soft pillow on a standard armored back has survived. The fact that the armor back is green is completely normal, the aircraft armor was also painted in black and interior colors.

 

This is a tail unit from a Pe-2, that's how colors can degrade, so we can't mindlessly take paint samples from scrap metal.

 

A super rare sample, this is paint from Er-2, I thought it was gray, but my friends, industrial divers, assured me that this is how corroded silver paint usually looks like.

 

This is MBR-2 flying boat's tail, opinions were divided, some people believe that this is AMT-10 marine paint, others that it is ordinary AMT-4, degraded beyond recognition.

 

Who wants to continue to puzzle over this riddle, here's another sample from the hatch from MBR-2

 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by DLinevitch

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Psy, 

thank you for sharing these interesting images.

About AMT-10, have you tried to abrade it a bit to see if it changes its shade?

About the backrest of the MiG-3, I see both green and black paint. Which is the underlying color?

 

About the I-16 in Chkalow museum, I see that it has a UTI windshield and is without weapons, but why do you think that it could be not a Type 5?

Regards

Massimo

[DLinevitch]

16 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi Psy, 

thank you for sharing these interesting images.

About AMT-10, have you tried to abrade it a bit to see if it changes its shade?

About the backrest of the MiG-3, I see both green and black paint. Which is the underlying color?

 

About the I-16 in Chkalow museum, I see that it has a UTI windshield and is without weapons, but why do you think that it could be not a Type 5?

Regards

Massimo

1.The photos were taken a very long time ago, then no one was puzzled by questions of paint

2. Black is not paint, but dirt, what kind of primer was there no one bothered to find out, this is also a very old photo

3. Т5 has differences in the design of the fuselage associated with the arrangement of a movable canopy, but on the existing machine there are no such signs, and there are no signs that it was rebuilded. This plane is not even a conversion of the T5 into something else, it is a completely obscure design. It is possible that this is some kind of intermediate prototype during the transition to the T10, or special builded testbed.

Edited January 11, 2021 by DLinevitch

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Psy, 

are these exhibits still existing?

 

About the plane in the Chkalow museum: couldn't it be a late Type 5 whose open windshield was lost and replaced with what they had? Are there other differences when compared to a Type 5?

[DLinevitch]

15 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi Psy, 

are these exhibits still existing?

 

About the plane in the Chkalow museum: couldn't it be a late Type 5 whose open windshield was lost and replaced with what they had? Are there other differences when compared to a Type 5?

Massimo, aircraft with a closed canopy and an aircraft with an open one, are different fuselage designs. The plane from the museum has a fuselage more similar to the T10, but without the front cutouts for machine guns. T5 has a structurally different fuselage at cockpit area (inside and outside).

The museum exists and exhibits are on site - https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Мемориальный_музей_В._П._Чкалова_(Чкаловск)

 

By the way, this Po-2 of their museum is real 1930-40 circa (and almost untouched), and there is an opinion that its color is also genuine, the very rare creamy color that is mentioned in the monograph by Vakhlamov-Orlov.

Edited January 12, 2021 by DLinevitch

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Psy, 

thank you for the information. The image of the creamy Po-2 is interesting and suggests that other planes were likely painted this way.

For example, the I-17 exposed in Paris and Milan shows an overall light color, with slightly darker cowling. The dark area on the tail, once thought to be of different color, now is known to be a shadow only.  It was also drawn as white or light grey, but now I suspect that it had a different color not being presented as a military plane, and this cream seems a candidate. I am just thinking to update that old page.

The same for other prototypes or civilian planes.  

If I remember well, Orlov wrote of an AII tobacco too, I wonder if it was part of the livery of some civilian plane or prototype. 

The light blue utilized on the propeller is another surprise for me. 

About late Type 5, for what I know the fixed windshield and relative modifications appeared in late 1937, shortly before of the transition to Type 10.  Later, perhaps during the war, many old-style Type 5 were modified with a fixed windshield, sometimes still showing the traces of the rails of the sliding one on their nose. 

About the existence of exhibits, I meant if the wrecks in your photos are still existing. 

Regards

Massimo

 

 

[righidan]

Dear friends,

   The quantity and quality of information from this thread is very high, and I wish to thank Mr. Linevitch for all the material he has produced.

   Aviation archaeology may be a lesser branch when compared to traditional, but the information we can gather is quite astonishing.

   Even if as modelers we strive for an exact correspondence of colors, we must remember that in wartime no nation has ever refused an aircraft on reason of its camouflage hue, and so relics like the ones we have been showed give crucial information.

   Some pieces are so large and well preserved that they could certainly be subjected to a deeper color analysis.

   Recently I found a Wright Field study of 1946 with an analysis of Olive Drab paints, that included formulas for each of these paints together with Munsell notation, and a short article appeared in the first issue for 2021 of Fine Scale Modeler.

   I am quite confident that similar information about Russian colors is stored in some Russian archive.

   Waiting for such data to come out, I think we must be grateful for researchers like Averin, Vaclamov, Orlov, Linevitch, Timin, for all what we know today.

   Well, and to Google for automatic translation from Russian!

Regards

Daniele Righi

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Daniele, welcome here.  Lots of photos to discuss.

 

Quote

This is MBR-2 flying boat's tail, opinions were divided, some people believe that this is AMT-10 marine paint, others that it is ordinary AMT-4, degraded beyond recognition.

 

If the photo shows well the color of the wreck, I don't think that it's AMT-4. Usually degraded AMT-4 turns to chromium oxyde green, not greyish.

[DLinevitch]

10 hours ago, righidan said:

Dear friends,

   The quantity and quality of information from this thread is very high, and I wish to thank Mr. Linevitch for all the material he has produced.

   Aviation archaeology may be a lesser branch when compared to traditional, but the information we can gather is quite astonishing.

   Even if as modelers we strive for an exact correspondence of colors, we must remember that in wartime no nation has ever refused an aircraft on reason of its camouflage hue, and so relics like the ones we have been showed give crucial information.

   Some pieces are so large and well preserved that they could certainly be subjected to a deeper color analysis.

   Recently I found a Wright Field study of 1946 with an analysis of Olive Drab paints, that included formulas for each of these paints together with Munsell notation, and a short article appeared in the first issue for 2021 of Fine Scale Modeler.

   I am quite confident that similar information about Russian colors is stored in some Russian archive.

   Waiting for such data to come out, I think we must be grateful for researchers like Averin, Vaclamov, Orlov, Linevitch, Timin, for all what we know today.

   Well, and to Google for automatic translation from Russian!

Regards

Daniele Righi

Hi Daniele :)

Regarding paint colors, you are absolutely right, there is a Russian industrial paint catalog, but it is a coded according to which it is impossible to understand which chips belong to known camouflage colors. Alexander Akanikhin, the founder of the "AKAN" model paints company, found this catalog and rummaged in it, but it is very difficult to understand something, although it is possible. Here are examples from it. 

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, DLinevitch said:

Hi Daniele :)

Regarding paint colors, you are absolutely right, there is a Russian industrial paint catalog, but it is a coded according to which it is impossible to understand which chips belong to known camouflage colors. Alexander Akanikhin, the founder of the "AKAN" model paints company, found this catalog and rummaged in it, but it is very difficult to understand something, although it is possible. Here are examples from it. 

 

 

The above post contains very interesting sets of colourspace coordinates but they are relatively modern measurements. They are measured using the new 10 degree observer angle standardised in 1964. Previously it would have been 2 degrees.

 

Likewise Illuminant D, whether D50 or the more common D65 as quoted on these catalogue entries was created in 1967.

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

DLinevitch (Psy06), did these etalons (samples) have numbers?

 

I mean the numbers as listed here (picture below) where one can find also the A(erolak) paints. They were known as A-21, A-22, etc. Later code changed to ПФ-19 and they are available as such even today, see for example: https://www.infrahim.ru/products/1759/.  Note the ПФ-19 means these paints are (were) pentaftal based enamels, not straight oil enamels.

 

https://postlmg.cc/zVd0XRg6  It is my picture taken from Scalemodels.ru thread::  Химия краски “A-“, АМТ и AII? (Paint chemistry “A-“, AMT and AII?)

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17492

Actually I had forgotten whole thread as it did not rise much interest there and then.

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Kari Lumppio