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Help Needed... ww2 Russian Colors


Tokyo Raider

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2 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

Just brilliant Jamie! Thank you for the comparison. It looks like that I can add those AMT codes safely into my notes.

 

I made my comparisons only on the wooden fuselage and wing surfaces. How much would it effect on the result? On the other hand the colours weren't very uniform either; it was darker on other areas and brighter on other. All work was done in daylight.

 

Cheers,

Antti

On metal and wooden surfaces, only the painting technology and the composition of the paint differed. The colors were exactly the same.

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Here is a book in English, with pretty accurate information, in my opinion.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1afXDifcGfwwa2wqVHdRIsG4j_mJjB-GS/view?usp=sharing
And just in case, the book is in Russian. Suddenly it will be useful to someone.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C6tmax8U1g-WTOi-u8ScJtQ3YMMnCCAe?usp=sharing

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19 minutes ago, Kari Lumppio said:

 The black/green MiG-3 wing example at Vesivehmaa is more like AMT-4 and your paint sample. No worries there and the AMT-7 light blue is good too.
 

 

The NCS values (both green and light blue) I published, are based on the wing at Vesivehmaa. The fuselage and stabilators at Hyrylä gave slightly different readings.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

I made my comparisons only on the wooden fuselage and wing surfaces. How much would it effect on the result? On the other hand the colours weren't very uniform either; it was darker on other areas and brighter on other. All work was done in daylight.

 

Cheers,

Antti

Probably due to the use of two different types of paint on wooden or fabric surfaces (AIIz) and on metal surfaces (A-19). This is particularly visible on some "Operation Barbarossa" photos of early MiG-3s.

 

Mi-G-3-Akan-colours.jpg

 

John

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This photo of the rear fuselage of the MIG-3 shows the AMT-4 and AMT-7
And yes, in theory, there could be an A-19 on the steering wheel. Or any other green paint that the technician had on hand at the time of the touch-up.
MiG-3.jpg

Edited by Сергей Никитин
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2 minutes ago, Сергей Никитин said:

This photo of the rear fuselage of the MIG-3 shows the AMT-4 and AMT-7
MiG-3.jpg

 

This is the one at Hyrylä (AA Museum) Kari already mentioned. Thank you Sergei for this Photo!

 

I made some colour comparisons on these parts and pieces as well. Some matched with the results I published earlier in this thread and some didn't.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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17 minutes ago, Сергей Никитин said:

Here is a book in English, with pretty accurate information, in my opinion.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1afXDifcGfwwa2wqVHdRIsG4j_mJjB-GS/view?usp=sharing
And just in case, the book is in Russian. Suddenly it will be useful to someone.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C6tmax8U1g-WTOi-u8ScJtQ3YMMnCCAe?usp=sharing

Sorry, the Pilawski book is the very one discussed above, that is full of misinformation and not based on genuine Russian colour sources.  It is a very impressive/enjoyable book, with much in it that is good, but it is not to be relied upon.  Which is an enormous pity.  As a hint, he believes that he can infallibly tell the colours of Russian aircraft from black and white photos.  Because all the colours are known to him (he thought), and there was only one kind of film available... which says nothing about possibly camera filters, lighting conditions, or printing/reproduction effects.

 

For Russian schemes, as opposed to colour matching, the best English source is still Hornat/Migliardi's Colours of the Falcons.  9780973999402: Colors Of The Falcons. Soviet Aircraft Camouflage & Markings In World War II - AbeBooks - Jiri Hornat: 0973999403  Hopefully it should be possible to find it cheaper, it is a regrettably thin book.  For better colours the profiles in books by Karl Frederik Guest and Mikhail Maslow can be recommended.  Lots of good photos there too.

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18 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

For Russian schemes, as opposed to colour matching, the best English source is still Hornat/Migliardi's Colours of the Falcons.  9780973999402: Colors Of The Falcons. Soviet Aircraft Camouflage & Markings In World War II - AbeBooks - Jiri Hornat: 0973999403  Hopefully it should be possible to find it cheaper, it is a regrettably thin book.

 

This book was based on Sergey's second link, by M.V. Orlov and V.S. Vakhlamov:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C6tmax8U1g-WTOi-u8ScJtQ3YMMnCCAe?usp=sharing

...and quite useful, even though it's not in English. Thank you for the link, Sergey!

 

John

 

 

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For English-speakers/readers, I think Massimo Tessitori's work is still the best and most comprehensive. Massimo did the colour profiles for two of my books (on the Il-2, and the WWII Lavochkin fighters), and I know he is a conscientious and thorough researcher. Thank you for the link, John!

 

Best Regards,

 

Jason

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3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Sorry, the Pilawski book is the very one discussed above, that is full of misinformation and not based on genuine Russian colour sources.  It is a very impressive/enjoyable book, with much in it that is good, but it is not to be relied upon.  Which is an enormous pity.  As a hint, he believes that he can infallibly tell the colours of Russian aircraft from black and white photos.  Because all the colours are known to him (he thought), and there was only one kind of film available... which says nothing about possibly camera filters, lighting conditions, or printing/reproduction effects.

 

I wish I could find that other article shared here a year or two ago about the He 115 or Arado 196 dragged out of a fjord which he wrote. With similar confirmation biasing and pseudoscience he sanded some paint off the wreck, swilled the dust in water and stuck a pH stick in it, thinking that getting the exact pH of seawater was proof positive of a specific paint composition and therefore colour. It was remarkably absurd.

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Ok... the fighter colors post 43 are straightforward.  AMT11, 12 AND 7 underside.  I am going to hobby shop now to get these model air colors and will look at how they look dryed vs. Refetences.  

 

 I was also preparing to build a Tamiya IL2.  what colors should this have?  I am tempted to use Tamiya colors, but if model air line is better?  They call out the olive green, grey and tan topside...  i will use AMT7 underside, but what AMT colors would this IL2 have topside?

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47 minutes ago, Tokyo Raider said:

I was also preparing to build a Tamiya IL2.  what colors should this have?  I am tempted to use Tamiya colors, but if model air line is better?  They call out the olive green, grey and tan topside...  i will use AMT7 underside, but what AMT colors would this IL2 have topside?

all in the links

https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/quickguide/quickguide.htm

Upper surfaces: camouflage with AMT-1 light brown, AMT-4 dark green and AMT-12 dark grey.

 

the Tamiya kits build a later war arrow wing two seat Il-2, earlier planes had earlier schemes. 

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5 hours ago, Сергей Никитин said:

And if suddenly someone needs it, I can throw off a book on the painting of Soviet aircraft, which is very often cited as an example on Russian forums. One nuance ... It, of course, in Russian)

Некоторые из нас умеют читать по-русски, товарищ.

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Hi all,

 

Best sources in English are IMHO:

- online Massimo Tessitori's web page and

- in print AK Interactive's book "Real Colors of WWII Aircraft" with part of the Soviet colours written by Mikhail V. Orlov: https://ak-interactive.com/product/real-colors-of-wwii-aircraft/

 

A translation based on work of Russian researchers would be most welcome!

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

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1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

I wish I could find that other article shared here a year or two ago about the He 115 or Arado 196 dragged out of a fjord which he wrote. With similar confirmation biasing and pseudoscience he sanded some paint off the wreck, swilled the dust in water and stuck a pH stick in it, thinking that getting the exact pH of seawater was proof positive of a specific paint composition and therefore colour. It was remarkably absurd.

While you can take the pH of seawater..... It was He115

 

pdf of the 'analysis' here

https://heinkel115.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Rapport-fra-Kjetil-Aakra-he115_paint.pdf

"Lastly, the pigments in each paint sample were distilled by reduction of the lacquer in white spirit" might be one the gems.

 

pH BTW is applied to aqueous (ie in water) solutions, as it the "negative log of the concentration of hydrogen ions in a solution" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH

 

for those glazing over,  you know how oil and water don't mix, well, white spirit is basically paraffin, a hydrocarbon in short =oil.     

 

So, the paint analysis was about looking at the pH of OIL based paint samples.   I posted this when the original discussion came up. 

 

Also, I don't know if anyone has tried to dissolve dry oil based paint in white spirit....  

 

OK, found the BM discussion via the defunct archived LEMB site

 

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1 hour ago, AaCee26 said:

A translation based on work of Russian researchers would be most welcome!

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

Unless I'm mistaken, that would be the book by Migliardi and Hornat, "Colors of the Falcons", previously recommended by Graham Boak, although IIRC Migliardi and Hornat might have made some minor revisions. My understanding is that this was closely based on a translation of the work of Vakhlamov and Orlov, a link to the original of which was posted by Sergei Nikitin.

 

Regarding the He-115 paint analysis linked by Troy, it's too bad Nick Millman no longer posts here - his input might be helpful. I know nothing about paint chemistry; my only comment is that Colour No.6, "Mystery Bright Green", looks very much like the infamous "Tractor Green" of much discussion - EP notes that it's unlike any of the other paints, and evidently not a typical aircraft finish - hey, maybe it is tractor paint! Now I are a researchifier, and this is my conclusion!!!

 

John

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15 minutes ago, John Thompson said:

EP notes that it's unlike any of the other paints, and evidently not a typical aircraft finish - hey, maybe it is tractor paint!

 

There's a vintage tractor restorer near me who finishes his restos in two pack or stove enamel, usually.  I'm going to tell him to use 'tractor paint' instead... ;) 

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Hi John & all,

 

1 hour ago, John Thompson said:

Unless I'm mistaken, that would be the book by Migliardi and Hornat, "Colors of the Falcons", previously recommended by Graham Boak, although IIRC Migliardi and Hornat might have made some minor revisions. My understanding is that this was closely based on a translation of the work of Vakhlamov and Orlov, a link to the original of which was posted by Sergei Nikitin.

Well, it is published 2006 and was not very extensive. There is already 15 years of research done after it was published. So I think it would need at least updating with the more recently found information. It was not a bad book at all, don't get me wrong. But for me the AK's book has replaced it. And AK is easily available too.

 

Both of them are quite small in page count related to the VVS. I believe there are much more that can be told of the fascination camouflages of the VVS.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

Edited by AaCee26
Typo
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Found some useful info on Massimo's forum which might be relevant regarding the original question.  Although Vallejo does offer a range of AMT-specific colours, one of the members there is suggesting the following Vallejo Model Air alternatives to AMT colours:

 

AMT-4 > Vallejo 71.010
AMT-6 > 71.057
AMT-7 > 71.008
AMT-1 > 71.023
AMT11 > 71.047
AMT-12 > 71.052
A-14 > 71.047

 

The assumption for the above is 1/72 scale, so they may/may not be appropriate for other scales.  I've only briefly compared these, but they seem reasonable.  Someone with more detailed knowledge of the topic might have more to add perhaps..

 

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