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Help Needed... ww2 Russian Colors


Tokyo Raider

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Greetings Brits...  I have been modelling a long time, but never built any ww2 Russian aircraft.  I just started aquiring many of the excellent kits of zavidza...  yak3, la5fn, etc. 

 

I have no knowledge of the colors.  Is there a standard ( like RLM or ANA) that Russians used?  I only see humbrol colors called out, and mainly I use Mr Color.  I want color accuracy, but is there a company I should look at that has Russian ww2 colors?

 

With German planes its easy...  get RLM 65 in just about any paint company...  but I dont see the same for Russian Aircraft.  Can you help me?  My shops here in USA, I can get Mr Color, humbrol, model air, and modelmaster.

 

Even a cross reference list would be helpful...  thanks!

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I should have mentioned...  I see a big range of actual colors for the russian undersurface light blue.  Some dark and some very bright.  Can you point me to the 'correct' color for Russian underside blue?  I dont know enough to tell if a color is not right...  thanks!

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Yes the Russians did have a specific palette, as you would expect from such a bureaucracy.  Unfortunately no example of it was known until a few years ago.  Paints matching this source have been produced by AKAN and Colourcoats and maybe a few others since.  If you want to see what they look like go to the Sovereign Hobbies site and look at the examples on show there.  Every paint produced is shown with a colour patch, so you can then make your own decision on your preferred range.

 

Confusing matters is that there was a set of prewar colours (the AII range) and a wartime set (AMT), hence there were two light blues, and possibly three greens.

 

Another superb guide is the website Sovietwarplanes - Index (massimotessitori.altervista.org), with its associated sets of colour profiles sorted by aircraft types.

 

Beware other, earlier, sources on the net and in books.  Not that they were all bad, but most of them did not actually know enough and there was continual repetition of (for example) green/brown  and green/dark green schemes.  

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@Tokyo Raider, Graham has given excellent advice. Check Linden hills imports, https://www.lindenhillsimports.com at the Main Shop title look for AKAN. This line of paint has a large selection of Soviet/Russian aircraft paint in acrylics and acrylic lacquers. @Learstang also has information that can help. HTH

Joe

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Working on a Eduard Yak 3 at the moment, with a La-5FN in the queue, so I'll watch with interest.  I have been doing some reading up on AMT colours.  I thought debates about RLM colours were bad enough........until I discovered AMT... ;) 

 

@Tokyo Raider - if your local shop does Vallejo model air, then you can find most of the principal AMT colours.  Whether they match the AKAN chips is another matter.

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Thanks Guys...  yes i am very well studied in RLM colors...  these Russian are new.

 

I would like to try the model air line of paint, and if they have the russian colors, i would like to try them.

 

 

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5 hours ago, dogsbody said:

NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT. 

 

this is what Graham is referring to 

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Beware other, earlier, sources on the net and in books.  Not that they were all bad, but most of them did not actually know enough and there was continual repetition of (for example) green/brown  and green/dark green schemes.  

 

And note from chart in link

 

Digital_color_chips_Feb08-Fictional.jpg

 

and of those, 

Digital_color_chips_Feb08-Misidentified.

 

 

So treat anything on http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/colour-samples.php

 

or here http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/colour-samples.php

 

with caution if it clashes with other sources.  colour charts from this thread.   THIS IS WHY VVS COLOURS CAN CONSIDERED CONFUSING.

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1071.0

 

 

6 hours ago, Werdna said:

I have been doing some reading up on AMT colours.  I thought debates about RLM colours were bad enough........until I discovered AMT.

another myth. 

VVS colours are basically simple. 

  

On 05/02/2016 at 17:06, Learstang said:

it is interesting how people talk about the 'minefield' of Soviet colours, yet the situation is so much simpler than say for the RLM colours, where people can't even agree on what colour RLM 83 was (was it light green, dark green, or even blue?). And the continuing (and endless) debate about Olive Drab has been mentioned. It seems that most people agree on the basic colours, although there is still some disagreement about how dark/light the colours should be. When you think about it, Soviet GPW colours were quite simple - black and green over blue from 1941-43, then dark grey, tan, and green over blue from late 1943-45 for most aircraft, except for the fighters, which were in AMT-12 Dark Grey and AMT-11 Grey-Blue over AMT-7 Blue. Then you have A-14 Steel Grey for the interior colour. That's seven colours in total, and that covers about 95 percent of the Soviet-built aircraft used during the war (excepting the Lend-Lease aircraft, of course). And these paints/colours were all manufactured by the same big 'company'.

since the new quote collapse the box down

"it is interesting how people talk about the 'minefield' of Soviet colours, yet the situation is so much simpler than say for the RLM colours, where people can't even agree on what colour RLM 83 was (was it light green, dark green, or even blue?). And the continuing (and endless) debate about Olive Drab has been mentioned. It seems that most people agree on the basic colours, although there is still some disagreement about how dark/light the colours should be. When you think about it, Soviet GPW colours were quite simple - black and green over blue from 1941-43, then dark grey, tan, and green over blue from late 1943-45 for most aircraft, except for the fighters, which were in AMT-12 Dark Grey and AMT-11 Grey-Blue over AMT-7 Blue. Then you have A-14 Steel Grey for the interior colour. That's seven colours in total, and that covers about 95 percent of the Soviet-built aircraft used during the war (excepting the Lend-Lease aircraft, of course). And these paints/colours were all manufactured by the same big 'company'.

 

 

there are areas on confusion,  and complexity,  it's less complex than  basic as RAF colours in NW Europe.  

 

There discussion on the actual colours, but even they are within known parameters

very early war I-16, with a Bf109 as reference (these are similar, but not quite the same as the AMT-4 Green and AMT Blue) see 

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/i16/i16painting/I16painting-short.htm 

colorn14m.jpg 

 

and the 43-45 fighter grey scheme, this is a US color photo

 

 

50734702207_72d87fffd2_b.jpg

 

the grey did fade.  Note silver outline to star. 

 

@Tokyo Raider jusy a little background on the reasons for a lot of variability on VVS colours you may encounter.    There are linked threads which deal with in further depth if you wish to know more of the background, 

 

8 hours ago, Tokyo Raider said:

Even a cross reference list would be helpful...

there are digital chips here, and for the main colours you will need for 

 

8 hours ago, Tokyo Raider said:

I just started aquiring many of the excellent kits of zavidza...  yak3, la5fn, etc. 

there are FS595 near 'matches'  which if you have access to an FS595 set, may help in visualisations.     The most reputable VVS colors are from AKAN,  and as noted, these can be got from https://www.lindenhillsimports.com/

 

You may wish to see what US available paint ranges are recommended by some of our US based VVS buffs, @Learstang has been tagged, but I've seen suggestions from @John Thompson and @Seawinder  as well. 

 

Finally,  the color calls out by Zvezda in Humbrol are the nearest Humbrol do, as they don't do VVS paint, but they are a Russian company and the kits and paint guide post date the 'controversy'  I discuss above.  

 

HTH

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For what it's worth, the Model Master enamels I used were Gunship Gray for AMT-12 Dark Grey, Medium Gray for AMT-11 Grey-Blue, Russian Topside Blue for AMT-7 Blue, Neutral Gray for A-14 Steel Grey, Black for AMT-6 Black, Interior Green for AMT-4 Green, and Afrika Dunkelgrau '42 (Israeli Armor Sand/Gray worked also) for AMT-1 Light Brown. With the rundown of the Model Master line (thank you very much, Rustoleum!), I'll need to look for some other paints, once my stock of these run out, but these are the paints I have used/use for Second World War Soviet aircraft.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

Edited by Learstang
Additional comment added.
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7 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

another myth. 

VVS colours are basically simple

 

Troy - it's not a myth - the debates are real, I've read them.  And this is another one.  It doesn't mean the colours aren't simple though..

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But who is doing the debating and on what grounds?  VVS colours and schemes are much simpler when the myths are stripped away.  Which is true to a certain extent about much of the "history" of all nations taken as gospel for many years.  That there are still gaps and detail unknowns is true, but the totalitarian nature of the Soviet Union prevented much of the variety seen elsewhere.  They simply had less choice, and a more rigidly controlling system.

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7 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

But who is doing the debating and on what grounds?  VVS colours and schemes are much simpler when the myths are stripped away.

 

I don't propose to link to them here (some are indicated above anyway), but they are easy enough to find on both this and other forums.  Everything is simpler when the myths are stripped away - RLM, AMT and even 'duck egg blue' - or was it green*..?  ;) .

 

(* - this is an attempt at humour btw - not a proposition for debate)

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As others have said I would recommend Massimos site for colour information, to answer your question about underside colors I have attached some photos of the French Yak 3, this is a genuine aircraft not a reconstruction and the photos show it stripped back to it's original colours, the underside colour is quite an eye opener. I;m pretty sure that I used Humbrol 89 on my build.

The darkness of the upper colours is also evident.

spacer.png

spacer.png

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

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Until the age of 41, almost all Soviet aircraft were in the colors top AII-green(63018 AKAN) and bottom AII-blue(63042 AKAN)
3d0efb1d8242eb7d39623e6f4ed65eae.jpg
From the summer of the 41st top AMT4 (63001)+AMT6 (63043) and bottom AMT-7(63002)
786e8cdddcaac038f5a1c4c9c35c9542.jpg
From the 43rd year-top AMT11(63044)+AMT12(63045) and the bottom is still the same AMT-7
e79436da9b31856b054d8121c6c83fa1.jpg
This applies to fighters.
The color of the interior surfaces, chassis niches and landing gear struts themselves was almost always A-14

For myself, I unfortunately did not find analogues of AKAN paint, although it is not the best in quality.

I hope this helps you in some way)

Edited by Сергей Никитин
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55 minutes ago, Werdna said:

 

I don't propose to link to them here (some are indicated above anyway), but they are easy enough to find on both this and other forums.  Everything is simpler when the myths are stripped away - RLM, AMT and even 'duck egg blue' - or was it green*..?  ;) .

 

(* - this is an attempt at humour btw - not a proposition for debate)

 As Graham said, it matters much who is doing the debating.

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2 hours ago, Werdna said:

 

Troy - it's not a myth - the debates are real, I've read them.  And this is another one.  It doesn't mean the colours aren't simple though..

 

I think what he meant was that the subject should be fairly simple, but is confused greatly by some jokers prolifically generating misinformation. People who are not the primary researchers thus cannot tell who's correct and who is wrong. Indeed, they will start to argue with one another.

 

My particular subject of interest - the Royal Navy - is no different. The subject is relatively simple except for some time periods of over-lapping practises, but has been turned into a stinking cesspit of bunkum by people who's enthusiasm for writing books and drawing pictures greatly outmatches their knowledge in the subject.

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Hello guys,

 

I had a chance to study the remains of two MiG-3 fighters (they are on display in museums here in Finland). Using the Swedish Natural Colour System (NCS) colour fan, I made the following comparisons for "olive green" and "light blue" (I'm not familiar with the Russian colour standards or naming):

 

spacer.png

 

It would be interesting to know, how they match with available model paints, like Akan. Those paints are made here in Finland by Tikkurila paint factory although they are marketed and distributed by a different company. It is possible that Tikkurila used these MiGs for their study.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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33 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

... Akan. Those paints are made here in Finland by Tikkurila paint factory ...

 

Hei!

 

I think Tikkurila has bigger factories in Russia than in Finland. I have understood the Akan co-operation is performed fully in Russia. And only the enamels. I do not know who manufactures Akan acrylics (it was Dupont?).  Their enamels appear to be truer to the original samples.

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

Addendum

"Tikkurila has been in the Russian market for decades. Tikkurila started to export paints and coatings to the former Soviet Union since the 1970s. The first Western-style paint factory in Russia was opened by Tikkurila in St. Petersburg in 1995. Currently, Tikkurila has four production units in Russia; three in St. Petersburg and one in Staryi Oskol. Tikkurila's logistics and retail network covers the whole country. Tikkurila operates two primary brands in Russia, Tikkurila and Teks."

https://www.coatingsworld.com/issues/2017-10-01/view_breaking-news/tikkurila-plans-to-build-new-factory-in-russia/

Edited by Kari Lumppio
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32 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

Hello guys,

 

I had a chance to study the remains of two MiG-3 fighters (they are on display in museums here in Finland). Using the Swedish Natural Colour System (NCS) colour fan, I made the following comparisons for "olive green" and "light blue" (I'm not familiar with the Russian colour standards or naming):

 

spacer.png

 

It would be interesting to know, how they match with available model paints, like Akan. Those paints are made here in Finland by Tikkurila paint factory although they are marketed and distributed by a different company. It is possible that Tikkurila used these MiGs for their study.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

I'll play. Both of your NCS1950 matches are two shades more towards green than Colourcoats AMT-7 blue and AMT-4 olive.

 

resized_621bf703-9b51-4b41-902e-f2501912

 

with our AMT-7 being slightly darker than 3020 series but not as dark as 3030.

resized_6afb9b52-a977-44fe-aff0-29993279

 

Apologies that this is a wet sample. I haven't had time to decant this one yet - I've had to prioritise more important products.

resized_7ede5af6-dfe6-4152-92cb-1e26924c

 

resized_79950245-6b98-4b02-8a5f-e6b58270

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Hello!

 

Jamie, in my opinion your AMT-4 looks good and has that yellow needed. I believe Antti's sample is taken against the MiG-3 "1" (s/n 2171) which in my opinon is not AMT-4 but some other, purer, green. (wrong, see Antti's later response)* The black/green MiG-3 wing example at Vesivehmaa is more like AMT-4 and your paint sample. No worries there and the AMT-7 light blue is good too.

The greenish tinge in light blue original samples can also be partly effect of the paint binder yellowing.

 

*The green can also be found on the MiG-3 "1" metal horizontal stabilizer interior and under the same stabilizer light blue underside paint. The "Factory Green"?? I wrote about that already in my 1998 R.M.S posting? I should have googled that to support my memory.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Edited by Kari Lumppio
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Here is an example of using AKAN paints on the Yak-1 model. Used AMT-4 and AMT-7  and landing gear A-14 and I find these colors almost perfect for Soviet aircraft from the summer of 41 to 43.
892954-43259-99-1440.jpg
892949-43259-77-1440.jpg

Concerning the production of paints. Earlier AKAN actually ordered its paints from Dupont. At this time, unfortunately, I do not know where exactly the paint is produced, but the quality has dropped somewhat over the years.
Ideal for use  - paint + glossy or semi-gloss varnish + thinner (I use Laska nail polish remover)
2705841.jpg

Edited by Сергей Никитин
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Just brilliant Jamie! Thank you for the comparison. It looks like that I can add those AMT codes safely into my notes.

 

I made my comparisons only on the wooden fuselage and wing surfaces. How much would it effect on the result? On the other hand the colours weren't very uniform either; it was darker on other areas and brighter on other. All work was done in daylight.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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