Eduard Spitfire Mk IIb, does it have all the parts to make a Vb?

[Scooby]

The Spit IIb is visually identical to a Spit Vb except the IIb has the blunt Rotol spinner and Jablo wooden prop and the  fabric ailerons.

 

The noticed the IIb sprues have both the fabric and metal ailerons, three props, and three spinners. Are all the parts for a Vb in the boxing? Which would explain why Eduard is releasing a Vb boxing in February. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Scooby

[RJP]

Larger ailerons?

[Scooby]

2 hours ago, RJP said:

Larger ailerons?

 

Edited out my error so I don’t cause confusion if anyone reads my misinterpretation and doesn’t read on.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Scooby
Error in information

[KevinK]

44 minutes ago, Scooby said:

If you have the latest Info Eduard there is an article in it that explains it. The Mk I had much smaller ailerons. There is a big difference between the aileron size between the Eduard Mk I kits and their Mk II kits (as with the real aircraft).

 

No - the Mk II had the same size ailerons as the Mk I. What I think that you are seeing in the Eduard diagram in their Dec newsletter is the upper and lower surfaces of the Spitfire's Frise aileron. The lower surface is larger than the upper and, to be fair to Eduard, they did label their diagram correctly.

 

The change to metal-skinned ailerons came in during Mk V production, although earlier aircraft still in front-line service may well have been retrofitted, as the ailerons were interchangeable between aircraft. It's also possible that production at Supermarine & Castle Bromwich differed for a short time. The big disadvantage of the fabric-covered surfaces was that - due to the aerodynamic deflection of the fabric at high speeds and consequent heaviness of the stick force, the roll rate achievable at high speeds was found to fall off too rapidly. Changing to metal-skinned ailerons almost doubled the roll rate from 40 deg/s to about 76 deg/s at 300mph: stick force reduced from 26 lb to 7 lb at that speed.

 

Aileron size didn't change on Spitfire production until the Mk VIII, which shortened them in order to increase the aircraft's aileron reversal speed. The next - and final - change was for the Mk 21 and subsequent, when the whole wing was redesigned structurally and aerodynamically as speeds increased further and the aircraft became heavier.

 

Kevin

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Scooby said:

larger fabric ailerons

???? I have never heard that earlier Spitfire have different ailerons size,  fabric vs metal.   I'll @gingerbob and @Peter Roberts on this.

looking here https://www.eduard.com/out/media/InfoEduard/archive/2020/info-eduard-2020-12en.pdf

 

figure 27, i think you have misread this, and the pictures show that the lower is wider than the top, as they are frise ailerons.   Look again1 is top, 2 is lower. The underwing bulge on pic 4 is the Vb cannon bulge, see below

1 hour ago, Scooby said:

The Mk IIb also had the Hispanic 20 mm canons and the wing bulges found on the Vb.

there are different underwing bulges, the IB has ones that are a different shape to the VB.  The early type are shown in the linked pdf.   the vb has a more kidney shape. 

I see that this STILL  say that the Mk.I has manual UC retractions and the Mk.II mechanical,  when film from June 1940 shows a mk.I with mechanical unit fitted....

[Scooby]

I now see my error interpreting the images, I also thought I read they were bigger in the Quarter Scale Modeler Spitfire special although after re-reading it I don’t see that in the text, my error.

 

The above noted Spitfire special does say that some Mk IIb were delivered with metal ailerons.

[Stuart Wilson]

Isn't the oil cooler under the port wing larger on the Mk V? though I believe some Mk II had the later type retrofitted and it may be in the kit. I haven't got one myself, waiting for the Vb/c kits.

 

Stuart

 

[Scooby]

5 hours ago, Stuart Wilson said:

Isn't the oil cooler under the port wing larger on the Mk V? though I believe some Mk II had the later type retrofitted and it may be in the kit. I haven't got one myself, waiting for the Vb/c kits.

 

Stuart

 

Both are in the sprues, you are correct it was different. I bought the Mk IIb overtrees to get a jump on building a Vb. So far I think the only barriers are the shape of the blister under the wing and the prop and spinner. I’m not sure if one of the three spinners and props is suitable for a Vb.

[gingerbob]

Probably all three props/spinners (unless one is a 2-blade!) are suitable for some Vb.  And the cannon bumps might be the same- compare kit to subject.

 

Oh, just remembered- one other subtle difference is the position and shape of the carb intake.  I don't know if Eduard has provided for that (I wouldn't be surprised).

Edited December 28, 2020 by gingerbob

[Peter Roberts]

I think you've nailed it Troy.

 

5 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Probably all three props/spinners (unless one is a 2-blade!) are suitable for some Vb.  And the cannon bumps might be the same- compare kit to subject.

 

Oh, just remembered- one other subtle difference is the position and shape of the carb intake.  I don't know if Eduard has provided for that (I wouldn't be surprised).

 

First I've heard of differences in the carb intake - I've missed that one. Do you have any info on that one GB?

[Scooby]

1 hour ago, Peter Roberts said:

I think you've nailed it Troy.

 

 

First I've heard of differences in the carb intake - I've missed that one. Do you have any info on that one GB?

 There is mention of it in the Spitfire special I mention, from what I understand from the text the intake is shorter on the Vb. In 1/48 about 1 mm. That is if the author has his info correct.

[gingerbob]

I don't have ready illustrative information, but the Merlin 45's improved supercharger made the carb intake shift a small amount, and (I think) the external shape (fairing) also changed in detail.

Edited December 29, 2020 by gingerbob

[Scooby]

12 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Probably all three props/spinners (unless one is a 2-blade!) are suitable for some Vb.  And the cannon bumps might be the same- compare kit to subject.

 

Oh, just remembered- one other subtle difference is the position and shape of the carb intake.  I don't know if Eduard has provided for that (I wouldn't be surprised).

I batting 100 in this thread.

 

I just took another look at the IIb sprues, there are 5 props and 5 spinners! The two bladed spinner is one of them.

[V Line]

I have the 'overtree' version. 

Sprue 'E' holds the 'Watts' and dH propeller blades. The latter was used on the Mk's I, II and V.

Sprue 'A' holds representations of the Rotol magnesium RA640 (part 11) used on the Mk's I and II; RA675 (part 23) used on the Mk II and possibly some early Mk V's. Part 22 is a representation of the RA690, most commonly associated with the Mk V, Merlin 45.

 

Edit;

As far as the Rotols are concerned, the 'pointy' spinner is for use with part 22 only.

Mention of early Mk V's above (part 23), it could be these are in fact Mk II B's and checking my notes that is likely to be the case.

Edited December 29, 2020 by V Line

[gingerbob]

The Mk.II style Rotol was definitely used on some Vbs.

[V Line]

Mrs VL called and before heading off I made a rushed edit to my post above which I must now correct and will expand for the (possible) interest of readers.

 

Spitfire pointed spinner – was specified for use with earlier wooden blade. Here is a photo of the 675 with such a spinner (CSA type ES11):

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205445662

 

Regarding Bob's post above, yes of course as originally suggested in the shape of the RA675 as shown on what is stated to be a Mk V below (with an ES11 spinner):

 

https://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/7961

 

And below, BM510 immediate foreground with aircraft behind (probably Vb) fitted with the ES5 spinner and what looks to be the RA675:

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/20434

 

And also, BM260 with either ES5 or ES11 spinner:

 

https://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/19180

 

The Rotol RX5/10 hub was fitted to some Mk II’s (Merlin XII). This hub was also specified for the Mk V (Merlin XLV) and could be the common link.

 

There is an interesting extant anomaly in airscrew combinations in the following museum example.

 

The Spitfire Mk IIa in the AWM which is fitted with an RA690 and ES11 combination. According to the museum caption, the hub is an RS5/24 type which I believe is an unusual fitment and is the only verified reference (in comparison to many in circulation) I have found to this type being used on the Spitfire. It should be noted however, that this aircraft served with various units post operations in 1941 and it is to say the least, highly unlikely to be an original production fitting. The photographs of this aircraft are though, very good for anyone looking for the external blade/spinner detail of an operational Mk V Rotol.

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1117411?image=1

 

 

(Note to self- do not make hurried posts/edits in future).

[Scooby]

Bumping an old thread, is the answer the IIB does not have the same wing as the VB and therefore the parts to make a VB are not in the kit?

 

I just read an old Edgar Brookes thread where he stated the wings were the same.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Scooby

[Scooby]

After studying Aero Detail Spit I-V, I’m totally convinced the Vb parts are all included with the IIb sprues, even the clipped wingtips are included!

 

Although someone here will prove me wrong.

[Seahawk]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:30 AM, KevinK said:

The change to metal-skinned ailerons came in during Mk V production, although earlier aircraft still in front-line service may well have been retrofitted, as the ailerons were interchangeable between aircraft.

Sandy Johnstone (Spitfire into War, p163) recalls Jeffrey Quill visiting 602 Sq at Tangmere on 19 Nov 1940 to demonstrate a Spitfire with metal-covered ailerons.  On 23 Nov 1940 Johnstone's own Spitfire (LO-J, no serial given) was written off by another pilot: Johnstone was especially displeased because it was one of the few on the squadron with metal ailerons (p.166).  NB 602 Sq seemed to have a very cosy relationship with Quill so may have been early in the queue.

[Aidrian]

I haven't found anything missing - YET. Evidence for a modified intake is inconclusive, but if it did exist it certainly wasn't a hugely visible difference. None of the drawings in my pile shows it as differing by more than a line's width, though that may simply mean that it's a detail that has escaped the attention of quite a few different people.

 

A handful of Mk.IIbs  (P8339, P8545, P8549, P8589, P8645, and P8725)were reworked as Mk.Vbs by fitting a Merlin 45, there was a separate mod for the larger oil cooler which Edgar Brooks mentioned on here a few years ago. 

[Troy Smith]

On 09/03/2021 at 04:12, Scooby said:

After studying Aero Detail Spit I-V, I’m totally convinced the Vb parts are all included with the IIb sprues, even the clipped wingtips are included!

 

Although someone here will prove me wrong.

Underwing cannon bulges, IIB - tubular, VB - kidney shaped is my suggestion.  

[Graham Boak]

I understood that the underwing cannon bulges changed from the very first Mk.Is with cannon to the Mk.Ib with the revised feed, but not that they changed thereafter.

 

Not mentioned so far (I think) but early Mk.Vs retained the small bulge on the starboard cowling for the Coffman starter, but probably only to use up spare stock as this was absent on the majority of Mk.Vs.

[gingerbob]

Early Castle Bromwich Mk.Vs, that is. (starboard cowl bump)

[Aidrian]

A bit of digging suggest that the cannon fairings on the underside of the wings are slightly different between Mk.IIB and "most" MkVbs, the Eduard kit  having the narrower teardrop type fitted to the IIBs and conversions - oddly enough it seems that very few Mk.Vb drawings and kits have got the later type quite right as it's not symmetrical about its long axis, but spreads out on the outboard side 

 

A well known view of a 92 sqn machine converted from a Mk1 follows ; it has the same fairing as the Eduard moulding

 

 

The asymmetrical style of fairing will have to wait for a dedicated Vb wing to be made available.

 

 

The answer to the original question might be that you can accurately model *some* Mk.Vbs, especially those which were converted from ealrlier marks, but not all.

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Aidrian

[DominikS]

Just a quick question about the underwing bulges in cannon armed Spitfires Mk.I and II. Were they the same? The option given by Eduard seems more like Spitfire Mk.I (known from the photos of QJ-S Spitfire Mk.I/V)  than Mk.II. I might be wrong, but the Spitfire Mk.II  which is in Canada has bulges which look more like those in the colour photo posted in the previous post.