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Eagle Squadron Spitfire Mk.IIa


FloydWerner

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I’m ready to embark on building the Eduard 1/48 Spitfire Mk.IIa.  I’d like to do one of the aircraft that Don Gentile flew.
 

My British references are sorely lacking.

 

As far as I can tell he did his training in the 59 OTU.  His first flight in a Spitfire was flying LV-N, not sure on the first letters, on March 8 for 1:10.  I have a copy of his logbook.  It does not contain a serial number.  He is very specific when he flys the Mk.Vb or Mk.IX, so I assume this is either a Mk.I or Mk.II.  


I’m trying to figure out a few things.  First the call letters, serial number.

Second is the paint scheme.  Is it DE/DG over Sky or is it OG/DG over MSG?

 

I realize I’ll probably never find a pic of the actual aircraft but I’m okay best guesstimate.

 

Another couple of aircraft he flew was LV-D and JZ-31.

 

Barring that I could always do Dunn’s but again that comes down to what colors are that machine.  I’ve only seen one pic of the aircraft shot with Ortho film.  I’m not convinced one way or the other on that, DE/DG or OG/DG?

 

I want to be as accurate as possible.  I’d love a DE/DG Eagle Squadron plane for my collection.  

 

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks

Floyd 

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As far as I know 59 OTU was equipped with Hurricanes at that time. I presume you are referring to 57 OTU since this unit used both "LV" and also "JZ" as codes during its existence.

 

There is a BW photograph of LV-N, a Spitfire Mk Ia, which shows the Serial AR 212. According to some color profiles, this OTU Spitfire has a yellow nose and a DE/DG over Sky paint scheme.  However, whether these profiles are accurate or not is of course subject to debate.

 

https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=57&p=1181865

 

 

Edited by 112 Squadron
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10 hours ago, FloydWerner said:

Second is the paint scheme.  Is it DE/DG over Sky

Temperate Land Scheme

10 hours ago, FloydWerner said:

or is it OG/DG over MSG?

Day Fighter Scheme

 

the changeover date from Temperate Land Scheme  to Day Fighter Scheme was August 1941.    As you have the logbook, that should have dates.

 

An OTU maybe would changeover from TLS to DFS as fast, but if you have the logbook, if it's before August 41, it's TLS.   I'd suggest a date after Sep 41 would be DFS. 

Note, when the change happened, there was a shortage of Ocean Grey, and a mixed grey was used, 7 parts MSG to 1 part Night, which creates variation. 

 

  Usually in B/W photos, there is greater contrast in the uppers on the DFS, and the undersides appear a mid grey tone.  Sky in the TLS usually appears near white in B/W.   the otehr thing is to look at the spinner, sky band and codes, codes switched from MSG to Sky with the change from TLS to DFS.  

If it has leading edge yellow stripes, it's DFS.

 

 

This,

Supermarine%20Spitfire%20Camo%20&%20Mark

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Supermarine-Spitfire

 

while old, is still a very good primer on Spitfire camo and markings,  it was the first to be published after this information was declassfied in the archives.   

 

there are a few 57 OTU pics here, but most are from after May 42 (note roundel change) but one useful detail, the PW codes Spitfires show both sides,  and note Port read PW*x. Starboard reads x*PW.   (x= any letter, *= roundel)  which is useful as RAF codes are the  part of British markings that a Luftwaffe buff will appreciate,  as there is no code running order, (hence above comment) let alone a standard "font" for character style.... without a photo it's best guess from other photos,  usually the codes are similar in a squadron, as is running order, but that, could, and did change during the war....

 

But, really, have a read of the linked guide,  it has lots of useful info, and explains various quirks of markings.

10 hours ago, FloydWerner said:

Barring that I could always do Dunn’s but again that comes down to what colors are that machine.  I’ve only seen one pic of the aircraft shot with Ortho film.  I’m not convinced one way or the other on that, DE/DG or OG/DG?

can you post the image?  

if it is this one

media-17187.jpeg?itok=l6FjQm04

from https://www.americanairmuseum.com/person/240123

this looks like DFS, note, as I mention above, the Sky band, codes and spinner are all the same light tone, the undersides are  are noticeable darker, note also the very pale upper grey tone, which is likely to be a mix.

Note how the codes read on the starboard side,  the other image shows the port to read XR*D

 

info on the airframe confirms P3708 arrived after the switch from TLS to DFS

 

"Supermarine Spitfire Mk IIa P7308, built at Castle Bromwich Aircraft Factory.
Delivered to 24MU 30-7-40, Assigned to 74 Sqn 10-9-40, transferred to 54 Sqn 22-5-41, transferred to 308 Sqn 12-6-41, transferred to 71 [Eagle] Sqn coded 'XR-D' 20-8-41, Damaged Cat CB on ops 27-8-41, sent to Air Service Training, Converted to Mk Va 1-9-41, assigned to 133 Sqn 1-4-42, transferred to 421 Sqn 16-4-42, transferred to 164 Sqn 17-5-42, transferred to 61 Sqn 10-9-42, transferred to 61 OTU 21-7-43."

 

see here for the complete production listing

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html

I'm not much up on 71 Squadron,  but if they got Spitfire prior to August 1941, they would have been in TLS,  if you have a serial and code letter, you could do a 'best guess' in TLS, which would be much like the pic above. 

 

I hope this makes sense,   please ask for clarifications if not, i'm trying to give the when and whys basics....

 

cheers

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12 minutes ago, FloydWerner said:

I think I can get away with the TLS if I can source the letter decals.

for 57 OTU? (you said 59 OTU again)

 

If you want LV-N for TLS.  the first issue of the Airfix new tool Mk,.I had this option

So,  Just ask about for leftover Airfix decals, the kit had 3 options so they are out there is decal dungeons ;) 

7286_2_AFX05126_10.jpg

 

AR212IaWASP20/1WestMIII6MU 18-7-41 57OTU 9-8-41 27OTU 27-9-41 air collision with X4605 crashed Chester CE 16-3-42 SOC

(which makes me think this should be DFS) 

12 hours ago, FloydWerner said:

His first flight in a Spitfire was flying LV-N, not sure on the first letters, on March 8 for 1:10.  I have a copy of his logbook.  It does not contain a serial number.  He is very specific when he flys the Mk.Vb or Mk.IX, so I assume this is either a Mk.I or Mk.II.  

I'd suggest that the plane you mention is not AR212 from the date, but the codes maybe useable. 

In March 41, the black port wing would still be in use, and you could fudge the serial as these were often overpainted by the Sky band.

 

HTH

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13 hours ago, FloydWerner said:

 His first flight in a Spitfire was flying LV-N, not sure on the first letters, on March 8 for 1:10.  I have a copy of his logbook.  It does not contain a serial number.  He is very specific when he flys the Mk.Vb or Mk.IX, so I assume this is either a Mk.I or Mk.II.  

Spitfires at at OTU in early 1941 would be older planes,  so I'd expect a Mk.I

 

If you are really dedicated, and want a possible serial, have a search of the production site,. and look for Spitfires assigned to 57 OTU in March 1941

eg

K9823Ia38EAMII66S 9-12-38 RAE 7-40 57OTU 31-10-40 43Grp 9-4-41 53OTU 17-7-41 PPSM 16-4-42 RNAS 13-5-43 761S Henstridge 5-43 to 8-43 759S Yeovilton 8-43-11-43 794S Henstridge 11-43 761S Henstridge tested 28-1-44

 

K9899Ia111EAMIIFF 13-3-39 54S 17-3-39 152S 15-2-40 602S 24-3-40 damaged ops 23-7-40 57OTU 7-11-40 AST 24-5-41 53OTU 24-8-41 overshot landing Llandow CB 15-10-41 SOC 18-10-41

 

It must be possible to search the data.

 

I'm not that up OTU's,  would they be all Spitfires, or a mix of types, with a few Spitfires at this date?   if they only had a few Spitfires, then you could narrow it down.  

 

HTH

 

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21 hours ago, FloydWerner said:

As far as I can tell he did his training in the 59 OTU.  His first flight in a Spitfire was flying LV-N,

 

20 minutes ago, FloydWerner said:

His logbook definitely says OTU 59.

OK, well, if it's hand written, he maybe made a mistake and wrote down the wrong OTU, as RAF Command has this 

http://www.rafcommands.com/Ross/Fighter/59otuF.html

No Spitfires

 

You list a code of LV, which is 57 OTU.    

 

I'm sure it must be known what OTU Gentile was at.     Hope the rest of the info was of use? 

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24 minutes ago, fubar57 said:

Airfix has the fuselage of band the same colour as the underside, beige green but the band doesn't seem to wrap around the fuselage and looks to be lighter

probably lost in my witter...

9 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

AR212 IaWASP20/1West MIII 6MU 18-7-41 57OTU 9-8-41 27OTU 27-9-41 air collision with X4605 crashed Chester CE 16-3-42 SOC

(which makes me think this should be DFS

Depends on how up to date the OTU's were on markings, but AFAIK, they used stand RAF camo for the type.  so with the switch from TLS to DFS by Fighter Command, so should the OTU's.

The low contrast in the upper colours maybe down to use of a mixed grey due to initial shortages of Ocean Grey, the mixed grey being noted for variations, often being quite dark.   Shades of the Sky story if you'll pardon the pun.

 

I believe this Mustang I photo shows the use of mixed grey, hence dark appearance,  but perhaps  @ColFord could confirm or correct me on this.

4804646934_c84ab16d84_b.jpgMustang I by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

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Sorry Troy. My above comment was made while looking on my iPhone but now that I have my laptop open, I see to different colours on the Airfix guide.

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I think I have that Airfix kit.  I'll have a look when I return home.  I'll just build the OTU one with the yellow nose and Dunn's in a mixed grey/DG.  Since this was taken right at the end of August 1941, is it possible that the hastily applied paint scheme did NOT include the bottom color?  Is it possible that the belly was still in Sky?

13 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

But, really, have a read of the linked guide,  it has lots of useful info, and explains various quirks of markings.

can you post the image?  

if it is this one

media-17187.jpeg?itok=l6FjQm04

from https://www.americanairmuseum.com/person/240123

this looks like DFS, note, as I mention above, the Sky band, codes and spinner are all the same light tone, the undersides are  are noticeable darker, note also the very pale upper grey tone, which is likely to be a mix.

Note how the codes read on the starboard side,  the other image shows the port to read XR*D

 

This is the only picture I've seen.  Thanks for the lead on the other photo.  A very hard edge, almost brush painted, so hard.

Floyd

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10 hours ago, FloydWerner said:

His logbook definitely says OTU 59.  I could see it as a Mk.Ia.  
 

Might be stuck with Dunn’s aircraft.  Was hoping to do a Gentile one but nothing wrong with Dunn’s airplane.  

Thanks

Floyd

A few years back I used Bill Dunn's Spitfire as a subject in my US operated Spitfires theme, here's a link

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

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12 hours ago, FloydWerner said:

I'll just build the OTU one with the yellow nose

Hi Floyd.

 

From the airframe data I posted above, AR212 was not with 57 OTU in March,  but you could use the LV-N decals,  as that is what is listed in Gentile's log book,  and make a best guess of the Spitfire LV-N in March 41, which is likely an old plane (see the two K serials with 57OTU listed above) so a undersides repaint in 'Sky', then a Sky spinner and fuselage band with black port wing and yellow outline roundel.  

Just a suggestion.

Admittedly AR212 is quite a fetching scheme :)  

 

 

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On 12/27/2020 at 11:00 AM, Troy Smith said:

Hi Floyd.

 

From the airframe data I posted above, AR212 was not with 57 OTU in March,  but you could use the LV-N decals,  as that is what is listed in Gentile's log book,  and make a best guess of the Spitfire LV-N in March 41, which is likely an old plane (see the two K serials with 57OTU listed above) so a undersides repaint in 'Sky', then a Sky spinner and fuselage band with black port wing and yellow outline roundel.  

Just a suggestion.

Admittedly AR212 is quite a fetching scheme :)  

 

 

Perfect.  Thanks

Floyd

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