michael_hase Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) Dear members of the board again: dear Troy, as many of us I am dealing with the 1/72 Arma-Model Hurricane Mk. I in Finnish livery, too. I will try to do the camouflage before the so-called "war-paint" was applied on this particular Hurricane Mk. Ia (HC-452) which now in restored shape is one of the jewels at Tikkakoski. Restored does not mean "completely restored" but in the 70ies some restoration work was done which - according to my sources and files - was not noted down completely and leaves topis open for discussion. More recently excellent conservation work by Harri Kuopainen and the staff at Tikkakoski was done at Tikkakoski conserving original parts and not overpainting them. Wish more museums had had this foresight during the past decades...... This Huricane still carries considerable traces the original camouflage of DG/DE and white/silver/black on the underside. Together with the originally kept new rudder from another Hurricane this one is a gem. The info in the cockpit is - for me - that source for early Mk., Is, too. However, Antti and I have some academic discussion concerning the wind-shield and the armour attached. The Tikkakoski Hurricane HC-452 carries - as far as I recognized when visiting Tikkakoski and taking pictures there two years ago - internally mounted armoured glass and I am of the opinion that the mounting of internal armour had not been introduced before summer 1940 which means some months after the delivery of the Finnish Hurricanes so that these Hurricanes in their initial delivery status simply could not have had internal armoured glass. The questions is if they were not delivered without windshield-armoiur at all then in 1939/40? But then the question is, when and from what sources was the armour added? As Finland very shortly after the "Winter-War" joined Germany as a more or less "forced-ally" the supply of spare-parts for Hurricanes from the OK stopped and at that time no other sources were available to Finland for getting spare-parts for the Hurricanes. I assume that the windshield was replaced in the 70ies and during this work the frame for the internal armour was added. Does anyone have info on when the mounting of internal glass armour actually started? Please prove me wrong with my assumptions concernign this topic. Hope to have not opened the literal "can of worms" with this topic. Best regards Michael Edited December 16, 2020 by michael_hase correction of grammar and content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 The other source of parts for Finnish Hurricanes was shot-down Russian examples, and something like the windscreen would be readily detachable from a wreck and re-used. This could be done at any time from the early 40s up to the time this was first seen on HC-452. It might be interesting to look at in-service photos of the Finnish Hurricanes to see if this modification was carried out on other examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_hase Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 This is a very interesting point of view! Haven´t considered this one yet M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Postlethwaite Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Internal armoured windscreens were fitted to some RAF Hurricanes in spring 1940 possibly a bit earlier. There are plenty of photos that show this, including a fair few in our recent Hurricane MkI book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_hase Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 47 minutes ago, Mark Postlethwaite said: Internal armoured windscreens were fitted to some RAF Hurricanes in spring 1940 possibly a bit earlier. There are plenty of photos that show this, including a fair few in our recent Hurricane MkI book. Hi Mark, thanks for the info. There are so many books on the market on the Hurricane and many contain basically the same info and many identical pictures. I have been working on this topic for many years by now and know most of the books and magazine articles pubklished in the main languages here in Europe. Which one do you mean, please? For me, "the" book on the Hurricane is still to be written. A compendium as the book "Spitfire - The History" froim Key-Publishing. The pictures you mentioned - can you give some more info, please? The aircraft were dellivered in February 1940 (21st Feb 1940 onwards) so these should have been finished for training towards the end of January. They were picked up on 5th February by Finnish pilots who started training on threse then. Best regrads Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 hours ago, michael_hase said: Which one do you mean, please? Wingleader Photo Archive No.3 https://www.wingleader.co.uk/shop/hurricane-mki-wpa3 has a pdf sampler. Actually has a lot of new photos, and some intriguing images as well. Overall a great book, I have a few minor points, but also learned a few new details. I have yet to get their Spitfire Photo Archive, but I believe it to be as good as the Hurricane book. Wingleader have an extensive photo archive here's the online one, for Hurricanes https://www.wingleader.co.uk/ww2images?limit=20&page=1&searchType=any&searchString=hurricane some of the captions are not great, but as with anything like this, it's a labour of love. This maybe where the early Hurricane with 2nd hatch image is BTW. 2 hours ago, michael_hase said: For me, "the" book on the Hurricane is still to be written. A compendium as the book "Spitfire - The History" froim Key-Publishing. I really doubt it will happen. It's just too big a subject, and the Spitfire has the fame the Hurricane does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 hours ago, michael_hase said: I have some academic discussion concerning the wind-shield and the armour attached. The Tikkakoski Hurricane HC-452 carries - as far as I recognized when visiting Tikkakoski and taking pictures there two years ago - internally mounted armoured glass and I am of the opinion that the mounting of internal armour had not been introduced before summer 1940 which means some months after the delivery of the Finnish Hurricanes so that these Hurricanes in their initial delivery status simply could not have had internal armoured glass. The questions is if they were not delivered without windshield-armoiur at all then in 1939/40? as @Graham Boak suggest, could be from downed Soviet Hurricanes, they had 4, and were able to make a flyable example later on, used a target tow, HC-456 IIRC. But, there are lots and lots of photos of the Finnish Hurricanes, so study those This is later, as in Finnish warpaint this is as delivered which look like the standard screen with internal armour. I have a book on Finnish Hurricanes, and the MMP one on Finnish markings, again, lots of pics. I'll have a look later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 There are many photos of WW2 Finnish aircraft here: http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneo_carousel1bbn&lang=ENG&from=7aa7d252216b0553&count=1&timeout=8&auto=NO&startdate=19390101&enddate=19451231&publication=&xsearch_content=lentokone&verification=7aa7d22810600c57792a12b661bdefc8&fulltextname=CM_IMAGE&onlyvideo=0&onlycolor=0 Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 I have the MMP book complete with transfers in 1/48 and 1/72 and can say they are a delight to use. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 11 hours ago, michael_hase said: Hurricane Mk. Ia No Hurricane Mk.Ia, just Mk.I 11 hours ago, michael_hase said: I am of the opinion that the mounting of internal armour had not been introduced before summer 1940 re the standard windscreen, this was being used way before summer 1940 From a Hurricane production list, L2047, was finished 26 July 1939. All the Finnish planes were N**** serial apart from L2048, https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38048-finnish-hurricanes-fabric-or-metal-wingers/ "Here is the serial list and original HU serial number: L2048 - HU450 N2322 - HU451 N2323 - HU452 N2324 - HU453 N2327 - HU454 N2347 - HU455 N2348 - HU456 N2358 - HU457 N2392 - HU458 N2393 - HU459 N2394 - HU460 N2395 - HU461. All were from the second production batch from Hawker. Kari Lumppio" One point HC-452 is not N2323, but N2394 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_hase Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 Gentlemen, thank you very much for the input. I have the MMP-book and others on this topic as well but will certainly have a look at the Wingleader Photo Archive No. 3. I have been lucky enough to visit Tikkakoski myself where I was able to have a close look on and inside this Hurricane with the result of a considerable amount of pictures..... The question was and is when the internal armoured glass for the windshield was introduced for the first time. I learnt that it came later than the external armoured glass which was added earlier in 1940. I hoped you and especially Troy, our expert on Hurricanes here, could tell when the official introduction of the internal - respectively external - armoured glass was. HC-451 (?) has -in my opinion external armoured glass added HU-460 seems to me to have no additioanl armour at all but the standard windshield. L2047 in the post - could that be external? This aircraft was built in 1939, the picture taken in May 1940? The fuselage roundel already is yellow outlined I learnt that this type of armoured glass was re-fitted to aircraft already in service. Again, many thanks for the info! Happy modelling and stay safe! Yours Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, michael_hase said: L2047 in the post - could that be external? This aircraft was built in 1939, the picture taken in May 1940? The fuselage roundel already is yellow outlined I learnt that this type of armoured glass was re-fitted to aircraft already in service. L2047 does not have a yellow fuselage ring. This is an overpaint of the type A1, note also the overpainted wing roundels, and for reference, the prop tips are yellow. The 'outer ring' is not the same tone. Also, when the yellow ring came back in in may 1940, fin flashes were added. Notye trees in background are bare, so pre leaf in spring 1940. see here for this topic https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963507-all-the-hurricane-questions-you-want-to-ask-here/&do=findComment&comment=1673827 this side on shot of L2047 shows no external armour 18 minutes ago, michael_hase said: The question was and is when the internal armoured glass for the windshield was introduced for the first time. I learnt that it came later than the external armoured glass which was added earlier in 1940. I hoped you and especially Troy, our expert on Hurricanes here, could tell when the official introduction of the internal - respectively external - armoured glass was. AFAIK, the only screen with external armour are the initial curved lower edge type. I presume this was a 'fix' for lack or armour glass, then addressed in the standard type. I don't know when the standard screen came in, I used L2047 as it shows this clearly. Recently a pic of P2539 (probably ) turned up, with the curved edge screen, which was a surprise. https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235083989-hurricane-73-sq-france-may-1940-tp-o-p25-but-early-windscreen-fitted/ But from photos, the standard screen came in during the L**** run. But, re the Finnish Hurricane, AFAIK HC-452 has the windscreen fitted when built. If you want to check, I suggest email the FAF Museum to check, as I have always found them very helpful in their replies. What is becoming clear is that Mk.I Hurricanes are a far more complex subject than is usually thought. cheers T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_hase Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 Good morning, sorry for havening been obviously impoliote however I spent a few days in hospital and away from the office. Perhaps you, Troy, have pictures showing the two different styles of added armour and their frames from the outside. When reading through the posts I asked myself about the technical way these were fixed. Yiou were speaking of a "unviersal" windshield. Am I right assuming that this was built to have pre-fabricated fittings for additional armour? From the outside, does it look similar to the "first up-armoured" windshields? Just to make sure that we don´t compare pears with apples... (I think you use the same expression in GB). We have pictures of the excellently restored Hurricane in Tikkakoski. Is there a good picture showing an early Hurricane with outside-fixed galss armour? Is there really any visual difference from the outside without closer look? Thanks for enlighten me shortly before Christmas😉 Best regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 4 hours ago, michael_hase said: have pictures showing the two different styles of added armour and their frames from the outside. When reading through the posts I asked myself about the technical way these were fixed. There is an early windshield, curved lower edge, that initially did not have armour glass, and was then retrofitted with external armour. There are not two types of armour AFAIK. Quote Is there a good picture showing an early Hurricane with outside-fixed galss armour? Is there really any visual difference from the outside without closer look? see below. Added external armour glass on L1592 in the Science Museum, from here http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/hurricane_mk1_l1592/ which has more images earlywindscreen with no armour also shows the early style of UC with a little door at the top (a new detail to me that is in Wingleader photo album) I'd have to go a photo hunt to find an image of the early screen close up this is interesting as shows screen from behind @dogsbody may have a Canadain production line image showing the early unarmoured screen better. 4 hours ago, michael_hase said: Yiou were speaking of a "unviersal" windshield. Am I right assuming that this was built to have pre-fabricated fittings for additional armour? From the outside, does it look similar to the "first up-armoured" windshields? the standard screen, with integral internal armour. From photo, this is the type fitted to nearly every Hurricane. Hurricane HW189 head armour by losethekibble, on Flickr wartime image this shows the internal armour screen well from here, which has lots of very useful photos https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/76586-hawker-sea-hurricane/ despite being a Sea Hurricane, nearly all the details are the same as Mk.I, and Z7015 went to a technical college after the war, and was there undisturbed until going to Shuttleworth, so has not been extensively rebuilt. L1592 at the Science Musuem was restored by Hawkers in the 1950's, but had been in Training Command until 1944 when selected for preservation. Just for completeness. The late Mk.IId and Mk.IV appear to have thicker bars on the windshield, as well as a small piece of external armour just below the windshield, cleary visible here from http://www.britmodealler.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235074537-hurricane-iv-42-sq-burma-1945/ HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-21 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 This topic is covered well in the new Valiant Wings Airframe & Miniature book No.16 The Hawker Hurricane pages 224-226. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 44 minutes ago, T-21 said: This topic is covered well in the new Valiant Wings Airframe & Miniature book No.16 The Hawker Hurricane pages 224-226. Does it mention the added Mk.IV armour? also, as you have the book, I have asked this elsewhere One I'd want to see before I buy. I was not very impressed with the SAM datafile. Some questions., what does it have on propellers and spinners? The link needs a tidy up edit, but does it have all of these illustrated and described https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/ What does it say about the Sea Hurricane IC? If it say a 100 saw service ,it's wrong. This is in nearly every Hurricane book, but there are no records of more than 1 or 2 being built. https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235031375-sea-hurricane-mk-ic-markings/ How many wing types are described, specifically, what does it have on the Mk.IId and Mk.IV wing, if it shows them as being like the IIc wing, it's wrong. There are photos of the Mk.IV wing here https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59225-hurricane-mk-iv-service/&do=findComment&comment=638080 Sorry to sound cynical, just that the Hurricane suffers, well, from not being the Spitfire really and as such does not get due care and attention, and repetition of previous errors..... Be great if the book does get right, but the 3 questions above are a good test. There were a few sample images on their facebook site, I noted the same (wrong) profile for the Malta PR conversion. thank you T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 I'm fairly sure that by the time CC&F started Hurricane production, they were building them with the armoured windscreen. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_hase Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 Ok, now I have the point. I definitely had mixed up two different things with these armour plates. Many thanks! Best regards Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari Lumppio Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) Hello! On 12/16/2020 at 11:22 PM, Troy Smith said: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38048-finnish-hurricanes-fabric-or-metal-wingers/ "Here is the serial list and original HU serial number: A friend pointed this thread to me. Hadn't read it before. The list I did post in 2003 of Finnish Hurricane wing types (likely in TOCH). Please forget it. At least stop providing my name with it. The incorrect list was based on wrong information given in a SIH book. I should be able to get the correct list but not for this occasion. I am pretty sure I have posted the correct one on some internet forum too. That would be 2008 or later. There was never any armoured windshield in Finnish Hurricanes. Finnish Hurricane head armour plates were received from UK, but the main armour plate was made in Finland. IIRC Soviets "provided" armour plate material for them. I have been told that HC-459 did have the older "wraparound" windshield in 1941. But no armour on windshield on Finnish Hurricanes. Cheers, Kari PS Here is the list of Finnish Hurricanes cross referencing Finnish AF and RAF codes. Archival research by Pentti Manninen and here with permission. No L series Hurricanes to Finland. N2322 -> HC-459 N2323 -> HC-458 N2324 -> HC-460 N2325 -> HU461 N2327 -> HC-457 N2347 -> HU462 N2348 -> HC-454 N2350 -> HC-455 N2392 -> HC-456 N2393 -> HC-451 N2394 -> HC-452 N2395 -> HC-453 The linked article below has table which gives outer wing panel covering material (kangasta = of fabric). With permission of the author&publisher. The article has HC459 photo with the earlier windshield. HC459 (Story behind a photo) https://drive.google.com/file/d/112LQBOGoN96v2UddO0_52bppCALuXpGZ/view?usp=sharing Edited December 28, 2020 by Kari Lumppio Additional info 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 3 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said: At least stop providing my name with it. The incorrect list was based on wrong information given in a SIH book. I should be able to get the correct list but not for this occasion. I am pretty sure I have posted the correct one on some internet forum too. That would be 2008 or later. OK, well, you could just edit the old post as well. Ab up to date list would be really appreciated, Ah, i see this has been edited in! Kiitos! 3 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said: There was never any armoured windshield in Finnish Hurricanes. If they have the later, straight lower front canopy, they have a sheet of armour glass. It's standard on this type of windscreen, and clearly visible here on HC-452 3 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said: Finnish Hurricane head armour plates were received from UK, but the main armour plate was made in Finland. IIRC Soviets "provided" armour plate material for them. clearly visible above. Another image of the armour glass. cheers T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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