RAF Museum disposals

[Pete in Lincs]

And the Huey begat the Huey Cobra which begat the Cheyenne which begat the Apache. Relevance, Game, set and match I think.

[Max Headroom]

3 hours ago, Meatbox8 said:

They probably need to make space for the creche play area.

Isn’t ‘creche’ a posh word for a prang?

 

Is that my coat over there.........?

 

Trevor

[Aeronut]

2 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

And the Huey begat the Huey Cobra which begat the Cheyenne which begat the Apache. Relevance, Game, set and match I think.

The museum was going to get an Apache (Wattisham's hangar queen) as the centrepiece of the Attack helicopters display until just before Christmas when the MOD announced they were keeping it to turn into a AH Mk 2 ground trainer. 🤬

[bentwaters81tfw]

^ Ah, yes, the one they fried?

[Pete in Lincs]

1 hour ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Ah, yes, the one they fried?

Jocks eh? First it's Mars bars, then....

[junglierating]

On 1/6/2021 at 5:16 PM, dov said:

An example of a big museum of aviation in Japan

Gifu Kakamigahara Aerospace Museum

This one is close to Nagoya, but still 20km out of town. I visited it several times. Now, this museum has a very unique and rich amount of unique aircraft. The luck in this case is the sponsor only. Kawasaki a short time ago invested a huge sum in this project and makes a real wonder out of it.

 

http://translate.google.co.jp/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sorahaku.net%2F

 

This may not so be in GB. Where privately donated museums are, but not in this scale.

It is sad, very sad, but does anybody know a way out?

Happy modelling

Wow wanna go ....but then I would go anywhere atm 🤭

[junglierating]

On 1/7/2021 at 6:04 PM, Dave Fleming said:

There is a move at RAFM to tell the story of the Royal Air Force through it's people rather than just it's airframes. What happens when you put a social historian in charge I suppose, but that's why they are moving from 'grab one of everything' policy that previous staff had. 

Snag is Dave .....that is exactly what the RAF is all about people .....no people no airforce .....in my case the best bit about my 22 years in the RN (FAA) was the people and the stories to be told ....the runs ashore and laughing whilst sat in a trench getting very wet ....be boring otherwise

[junglierating]

5 hours ago, Aeronut said:

The museum was going to get an Apache (Wattisham's hangar queen) as the centrepiece of the Attack helicopters display until just before Christmas when the MOD announced they were keeping it to turn into a AH Mk 2 ground trainer. 🤬

Quite right too.....if the asset still has a use then the MoD should use it .....one day they will get a cab once they become obsolete 

[Aeronut]

Quote

one day they will get a cab once they become obsolete 

The 'Gifting' date was put back to 2023.

[Meatbox8]

20 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

Isn’t ‘creche’ a posh word for a prang?

 

Is that my coat over there.........?

 

Trevor

A bit like putting 'Air', 'Hair' and 'Lair' together as a general greeting as a required for a commission in the Guards. 

[lasermonkey]

On 1/13/2021 at 12:59 PM, spruecutter96 said:

Schoolkids LOVE moaning about how their school-trips have no relevance to anything. They are too young to appreciate anything that isn't currently "trendy" - to them, being up to date with the latest bit of corporate-run rubbish is the most important thing in life. They would be extremely reluctant to express any interest in a subject their mates are not into.  Unfortunately, that's just the way things are for the young-uns. 

 

Chris.  

 

PS: I once heard a schoolkid at Duxford proclaim "I thought this would be about history! It's just a load of old aircraft!!" Casting pearls before swine....

That would have been heaven for me as a schoolboy!

[wellsprop]

On 19/01/2021 at 22:07, junglierating said:

Snag is Dave .....that is exactly what the RAF is all about people .....no people no airforce .....in my case the best bit about my 22 years in the RN (FAA) was the people and the stories to be told ....the runs ashore and laughing whilst sat in a trench getting very wet ....be boring otherwise

 

So true.

 

What people experience is what becomes history. Take the people away and it becomes not much more than a list of stuff that happened with no relevance to anyone. The only way we can have a connection to, and understanding of, history is to include the human factor in events. 

 

Read Jeffery Quills memoirs, for example, explaining what he and others did when flight testing the Spitfire. That's a vastly better story than reading factual engineering reports (they are dull, believe me, I write them - or at least the modern equivalent).

[KevinK]

32 minutes ago, wellsprop said:

What people experience is what becomes history. Take the people away and it becomes not much more than a list of stuff that happened with no relevance to anyone. The only way we can have a connection to, and understanding of, history is to include the human factor in events. 

 

I completely agree... BUT, if you take away the hardware, you take away not only the tangible evidence but also any reason for a physical presence of any kind: in the limit, that kind of museum will exist only in cyberspace as a collection of information. The hardware grounds the information in reality and acts as a preserved 'library' of information for future generations.

 

Some years ago, the Science Museum did a sort of 'archaeological dig' on Stephenson's 'Rocket'. In effect, they used modern methods to examine the real artifact in great detail and produced a long paper giving a history of all the changes which took place over its development. For the first time since 1829, we understand how and when the innovations were introduced. The Smithsonian has also been using this sort of approach for many decades.

 

If the RAF Museum continues further down its present path of aircraft disposal, there will be less and less of a reason to visit. In the longer run, without a major aircraft collection, it need no longer exist.

[wellsprop]

@KevinK yes, very true. The aircraft are inseparable from peoples experience and visa versa.

 

I must admit, I have always found Cosford a bit of an eclectic mix of aircraft, rather than a museum solely to tell the RAFs story. 

 

That said I could bang on about the cold War Hall and experimental hall forever! The Lightning hung nose pointing skywards, over the V bombers is just fantastic

[FiveThree]

An update to this old thread to let people know what the current state is at Cosford.

• The outdoors Jetstream was removed sometime in late June 2023, wither I know not.
• Test Flight hangar:
  • The H126, SR.53, prone Meteor, JP and active control Jaguar remain outside. Their space in the hangar has been reallocated to the Spitfire / Gladiator / Bf 109 / Defiant. 
  • The TSR.2, EAP, FD.2 and Kestrel are still indoors in the hangar. 
  • The prototype models ( F.155, OR.339 etc ) have been tidied up and put back on show with their display boards.
  • The SB.5 and Bristol 188 are in storage pending disposal to other museums.
• War in the Air hangar
  • This seems to be in a stable state now that the Wellington has moved in.
• Hangar 1
  • Is to be rearranged to reflect "The RAF since the 1980s".   What does that mean for the Argosy and Comet? 
  • A Tornado F.3 is rumoured to be inbound.
  • Spitfire PR.19 PM651 has materialised in the corner of the hangar, no display boards.
• The outdoors Herk was getting a wash-down in the last few days and is looking a little happier.

Edited July 5, 2023 by FiveThree
tidying up

[Jonny]

You know, the current ‘Aeroplane’ magazine has a letter from someone complaining that the SR53, prone pilot Meteor, etc experimental airframes are still languishing outside at Cosford. The editorial following the letter suggests that the magazine willkeep an eye on the situation.  No bad thing!

 

I’m becoming more and more convinced that the big ‘national’ museums such as the RAFM and possibly IWM Duxford have had their day.  I get a lot more pleasure walking around the ‘smaller’ museums such as Newark, Elvington and Tangmere which are run by enthusiasts and volunteers who really know a lot about the exhibits that they care for than RAFM Hendon or Duxford.

 

Perhaps the RAFM should consider gifting their collection to the smaller museums and focus (as they seem to be doing already) on the  ‘people’ aspect of their history?

 

I am very unhappy with the list the RAFM has apparently published of airframes they wish to dispose of. In many cases the reasoning escapes me, e.g. the two-seat Fw 190.

 

[Dave Fleming]

On 16/09/2023 at 23:36, Jonny said:

 

 

I am very unhappy with the list the RAFM has apparently published of airframes they wish to dispose of. In many cases the reasoning escapes me, e.g. the two-seat Fw 190.

 

 

I can see their rationale, even if I don't agree with it. There is no 'RAF story' that the Fw190 tells, similarly with the experimental airframes at Cosford. What happens when you put a social historian in charge

[Rob G]

On 7/5/2023 at 8:17 PM, FiveThree said:

Bristol 188 are in storage pending disposal to other museums.

 

Well...poo.  I was hoping to have another look at her when I was there in November. That is most unwelcome news.

[Dave Fleming]

On 18/09/2023 at 23:15, Rob G said:

 

Well...poo.  I was hoping to have another look at her when I was there in November. That is most unwelcome news.

Hopefully goes to Aerospace Bristol, who will value it

[TEXANTOMCAT]

Aerospace Bristol were, bu repute, offered the 188 and declined it for some reason - cost of movement? display space? Also financially I understand that they aren't doing very well financially.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-64651465

 

I agree however that lobbing them outside whilst the James May model Spitfire -fun though it was - takes up display space is nuts.  Really some ought to be in the Science Museum but Wroughton has been inaccessible for years and the Flight Gallery in London hasnt been updated since I was a kid so it seems no-one is interested in taking them on!

 

[Adam Poultney]

On 05/07/2023 at 11:17, FiveThree said:

The outdoors Jetstream was removed sometime in late June 2023, wither I know not.

Hmmm that did need a good clean but looked overall looked alright. Hopefully it'll turn up inside.

On 05/07/2023 at 11:17, FiveThree said:

The H126, SR.53, prone Meteor, JP and active control Jaguar remain outside. Their space in the hangar has been reallocated to the Spitfire / Gladiator / Bf 109 / Defiant. 

Mixed feelings. Experimental aircraft gave that part of the museum a theme rather than being a solid but generic collection of old aircraft. Certainly interested to see what they've done with the WWII stuff mentioned. Hopefully no more poorly placed display cases blocking the view of the Defiant's defining feature!

On 05/07/2023 at 11:17, FiveThree said:

The TSR.2, EAP, FD.2 and Kestrel are still indoors in the hangar. 

Reason for that seems simple. Iconic and popular display items especially the TSR2. Out of the experimental collection these are the ones I'd prioritise, with the addition on the English Electric P1. 

On 05/07/2023 at 11:17, FiveThree said:

The SB.5 and Bristol 188 are in storage pending disposal to other museums.

If they can find good homes I don't have a problem with this. 

On 05/07/2023 at 11:17, FiveThree said:

This seems to be in a stable state now that the Wellington has moved in.

Fantastic. Saw it at Cosford Airshow but need to go around and get a proper look on a quieter day.

On 05/07/2023 at 11:17, FiveThree said:

• Is to be rearranged to reflect "The RAF since the 1980s".   What does that mean for the Argosy and Comet? 
• A Tornado F.3 is rumoured to be inbound.

Argosy was on the disposals list. Terrible mistake it is the best preserved one in the world.

Comet is a great one too though it ought to be returned to its historical markings.

On 05/07/2023 at 11:17, FiveThree said:

The outdoors Herk was getting a wash-down in the last few days and is looking a little happier.

Much needed.

[Adam Poultney]

21 minutes ago, TEXANTOMCAT said:

I agree however that lobbing them outside whilst the James May model Spitfire -fun though it was - takes up display space is nuts

That shoddy replica should be gone. It has no historical value and the museum has a real Spitfire Mk.1. It's not even a very good replica compared to other ones out there. It was a fun gimmick but it should not be taking up space like that. Hang it up in the cafe at Hendon or something if they want to keep it..

[bentwaters81tfw]

I understand the RAF Museum wishes to dispose of aircraft that were not on the books of the RAF. It's rumoured TSR 2 is off to the Boscombe collection.

I'm surprised Bristol does not want the 188. The disposal policy is the reason we acquired the F-84F a few years back. I suppose they have to make room for the 'touchy - feely' exhibits now in vogue. Can't have nasty noisy smelly aeroplanes taking up valuable space that could be used for re-writing history, can we? 

[alt-92]

<insert wisecrack>

History is always rewritten. There are complete books written by historians on that subject matter alone.

</end wisecrack>

[tempestfan]

1 hour ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

I understand the RAF Museum wishes to dispose of aircraft that were not on the books of the RAF.  

In my book, an aircraft was on the RAF's book if it had a military serial. All those magnificent experimental planes and protos were in the end paid for by the taxpayer. I'd say that in particular this subcollection is unique in the world, and it takes quite a bit of ignorance IMHO not to appreciate this - by a museum, which is supposed to preserve history... and more or less all of them have quite some significance for the RAF as a service, as they pioneered stuff required for very significant service types. Don't get me wrong, I am not barking at you.

If one took the "RAF only" approach seriously, one could throw out the 110G and H-23, which are not RAF and have nothing whatsoever to do with the BoB, where they were located when I last visited (admittedly a couple of years ago :-)). And dispose of the 410 to make room for the "white" stuff.