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RAF Museum disposals


Paul J

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When I read the article I saw that this isn’t going to be a ‘come make us an offer’ type of disposal and that airframes would be offered to other museums, so no flyable 190 from Biggin Hill. A bit odd when the RAFM reclaimed the single seater back from the IWM a few years ago! 
 

Some of these planes are already elsewhere on loan - the Hunter F.3 at Tangmere for example.
 

Yes the Vimy is a replica - as far as I’m aware only the Science Museum and Australia have originals. So if replicas are out what about the Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter? The Beaufort apparently is an external lash-up of Australian bits. The Seagull came from Australia and the Stranraer is Canadian built.


Relevance - then give the FAAM the Sea Balliol (not on the list). The Danish PBY6-A is not representative of the RAF examples either. As for the B-25, that was a swap with Doug Arnold for a Spitfire or two.

 

There is no consistency here and has clearly been drafted as a ‘discussion document’ by someone who knows about as much about planes as I do about tanks - I could wreak unknowing havoc at Bovington!

 

Trevor

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Reading these answers ( including mine)  we can see how these museums get in to the too many planes / not required ,wrong planes / don't know how we got here etc. problem . Someone will find a way to include or get rid which is where they are . 

 

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3 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

I, for one, am very glad it's a museum to more than just RAF types. If it were, I doubt I would have visited it more than once. The great variety of the museum's airframes is a major selling-point for me. 

Chris. 

the variety is great. Personally I don't go to the museum to see one RAF Hunter, one RAF Vampire, one RAF Meteor, one RAF Canberra, etc. Seeing a B24, B17 and B25 at Hendon is great even if they are American aircraft. Seeing the Ju87, He111 and Bf110 also at Hendon was probably the best bit of the trip, at least as good as the dusty Vulcan crammed into a corner. Seeing the Me410, Ju88, and Ju52 at Cosford is part of the experience, as much as seeing the unique examples of the Defiant and the Valiant. 

At Newark, they have three complete Canberras and two cockpits, all different variants and each worth seeing. That really adds to the value of visiting that museum, the RAF Museum should take note.

I guess a vaguely relevant question is does the average visitor care that they aren't all RAF planes? Does it add to the experience or take away from it? 

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RAFM disposals will be dictated by financial considerations, staffing (including volunteers), historical significance, duplication with objects in other collections, issues concerning collections management, accreditation and storage standards, and of course a regard for the changing expectations of audiences.  Sometimes disposal is the only viable option, but is not undertaken lightly in any museum and has to be signed off by the Trustees:

 

Here's the RAFM's Acquisition and Disposal policy which may be of interest:

 

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/policies/Acqusition_Disposal_Policy.pdf

 

And yes, I think it's true that many problems (applicable to museums generally, not just the RAFM) have their origin in the past, when collecting policy was not quite as rigorously controlled or adequately thought through! 

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Taking this logically to it's conclusion .

 

It's the Royal Airforce Museum........................................................ then dispose of all the German Aircraft. All the USAF aircraft. Anything that did not serve in the RAF.

 

 

Wouldn't be a lot left.

 

The experimental hall at Cosford is a main attraction and aught to be expanded.  

 

Dick

 

I'm being devil's advocate :P

Edited by jenko
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Whilst I fully acknowledge that a certain percentage of museum visitors wouldn't know a Lancaster from a Doodlebug when they first see it (Mum, Dad and Two kids, for example), there is a definite educational aspect of having a wide variety of aircraft in the public view. These objects have a genuine historical value. The object of having the museums is not to glamorize war, but to commemorate the terrible sacrifice made by those who flew them. As someone much more perceptive than me once said: "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it" (that's quoted as accurately as I can remember it). 

 

Chris.  

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It would be good if the Avro Heritage Museum could take the Avro 707, and any Vulcan or Nimrod related items. The Dove/Devons were regular visitors to Woodford in the halcyon days too, doesn't take up much space either.

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1 hour ago, Lord Riot said:

It would be good if the Avro Heritage Museum could take the Avro 707, and any Vulcan or Nimrod related items. The Dove/Devons were regular visitors to Woodford in the halcyon days too, doesn't take up much space either.

The Dove and/or Devon would fit with the De Havilland Museum.

 

Trevor

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Whilst I have no doubt that the RAFM have produced this list, has it been officially released by them?

I also find it odd that the list does not contain the one RAFM owned aircraft I know to already be on offer; the Miles Magister which was taken off display at Middle Wallop in 2018 and still in store there.

As for the aircraft on the list that is at Middle Wallop, the Hafner Rotachute, the curator at Wallop will be asking for its transfer.

One aircraft on the list that I have a personal interest in is VX275, she was the aircraft that I carried my first passenger in. Ideally she should go to the Museum of Berkshire aviation at Woodley as she was presented to the Berkshire Air Cadets in 1947, but I doubt there will be enough room in that museum for her.

I may be asking Wallop's curator to put a bid in for VX275 so I can buy it off her.

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6 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

on the proviso that the public were not allowed inside. This seemed a little strange, as we were standing inside it at the time...

Do not answer the front door!

 

So if the RAFM wants, say ten grand for a particular Airframe, and the best offer is only five due to the cost of moving it. What happens then?

If no one wants a particular Airframe, what happens to it? Financially, this is probably not the best time to do something like this.

Furthermore, if they make, say a hundred grand, where does that go? On council tax? The gas bill?

IMHO quite a few of the Airframes on the list more than deserve their place in the RAFM. Someone needs a KUTA!

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@HOUSTON thanks for the link to the RAF museum website, from the way they have described the disposals, its quite clear they are looking to gift the aircraft to other museums or transfer for a more relavant aircraft. Which, on one hand, is perfectly understandable if you are a museum specifically for the RAF (although I couldn't ever imagine the FAAM getting rid of their Concorde or even FD2 for example)!

 

That said, I can't say I really understand the logic behind putting up ANY of the prototypes for disposal. It is impossible to separate the history of the the RAF from the development of British aircraft (and all the political chaos that went with it is key to understanding the RAF and British aerospace industry). Cosford has a totally unique collection in their prototypes and the lessons learned in design, aerodynamics, systems, materials, engineering, etc, etc all go into the RAF aircraft used today.

 

 

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On 28/12/2020 at 17:28, Max Headroom said:

The Dove and/or Devon would fit with the De Havilland Museum.

 

Trevor

 

They've already got a Dove (sat outside unfortunately). 

 

The DH museum is superb, I was lucky enough to get there this summer, the new hall they have is excellent and it sounds like they have good plans for the future. Here's to hoping they can get another hangar for the aircraft they have outside :)

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Can i have first dibs on the Bristol 188 please?

 

Not sure where I would put it, yet, but it just looks great. And it is stainless steel, so it won't rust!

 

Andy

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On 28/12/2020 at 13:09, Adam Poultney said:

Personally I think the experimental aircraft that are relevant to the RAF play an important part in telling the story of the RAF, how not every type made it to service and how much experimentation was necessary to get to many of the types we did end up with 

12 hours ago, wellsprop said:

It is impossible to separate the history of the the RAF from the development of British aircraft (and all the political chaos that went with it is key to understanding the RAF and British aerospace industry). Cosford has a totally unique collection in their prototypes and the lessons learned in design, aerodynamics, systems, materials, engineering, etc, etc all go into the RAF aircraft used today.

 

 

When I did my trade training at RAF Cosford in the early 80's we were taught about aircraft development e.g. airframes, engines and systems.  For instance, we would do a session on high speed flight and then we'd go and look at the aircraft which consolidated the teaching points.  It was, for me at least, a very effective way of learning about the how and why we got to where we were at the time.

 

Whether the collection should be at Cosford is a moot point, that the prototype/experimental collection should be kept together isn't, it would be a great loss.

 

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I am cautious of criticising the policy of disposal per se as I am not acquainted with the financial and practical constraints that the museum is operating under.  That said, if the Test Flight hall at Cosford is diminished then that is a major draw for me gone, and as someone who is a not infrequent visitor it will certainly impact on my willingness to make the journey up there.

I am particularly dismayed that the Tornado prototype is on the list together with the Bristol 188 & P1127.  I fear for the Jaguar ACT and EAP which ought to be alongside the Typhoon prototype.  All of these test, development and prototype aircraft tell an important story of both the British aircraft industry post war and of the development of aircraft technology and role specialisation.  That  the collection is a short walk from the Cold War exhibit which illustrates the contemporary motivations for their development makes it all the more appropriate as a location.  It is an important story and luckily many key airframes currently exist to illustrate it.  Personally, I’d like to see the Short SC.1 off the wall in Kensington and joining them.

If The RAF Museum is unwilling/unable to keep them then my personal pipe dream would be a national collection at Boscombe Down.

We all have our favourite aircraft it’s true, but I can’t see why the Heinkel 162 isn’t on the list?  How many do we need in Britain?  It would help to tidy up and focus the Bomber Command Hall at Hendon.

 

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With the current COVID situation and subsequent lack of visitors, I would have thought most museums are concerned with staying afloat right now and will not be acquiring new airframes. Also, most of the UK museums I've visited in recent years appeared to have as full a complement of aircraft and other items as they could accommodate.  

 

Chris. 

Edited by spruecutter96
Amending some information.
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50 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

With the current COVID situation and subsequent lack of visitors, I would have thought most museums are concerned with staying afloat right now and will not be acquiring new airframes. Also, most of the UK museums I've visited in recent years appeared to have as full a complement of aircraft and other items as they could accommodate.  

 

Chris. 

Many of our museums do seem rather too full and crowded, yet there are still gaps in the collections. Really we need another large museum in the UK, preferably another with a runway but that just is so unlikely to happen. 

 

Of the museums that have the physical space for a lot of new exhibits, the one that comes to mind is Newark. They have a lot of space outside, I don't know if it's used for another purpose by the museum but it looks perfect to add more aircraft. Just getting anything larger than what you can fit on a lorry there would be the hard part, and I don't know how well the museum would be able to support an expanded collection.

 

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Looking at the list there are a lot of 'Stored' aircraft. This could mean that they need to empty the storage space as someone wants to sell it and that the on loan aircraft may simply have ownership transferred to the museum of residence.

 

I have heard a few years ago the Tank Musuem had someone who wanted to get rid of all the none British tanks. They did not stay. long

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