Paul J Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 I don't know if it has been mentioned here but I caught a glimpse in an article in current Aeroplane Monthly that the RAF Museum is looking to dispose of non relevant aircraft such as the 2 seat Fw190 among them. Any body else see this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglierating Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 Not seen anything but imagine if they could make it airworthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 Cosford told me 3 years ago there were certain airframes up for disposal at the time we consolidated our deal on the F-84F. Not giving away anything that may be confidential. I did make suggestions about stuff I knew was going, in fact a certain museum is taking a significant large airframe at some future date. I could see that 190 going to Biggin Hill with the 2 seater Spits. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Aer Lingus Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Saw the article in Aeroplane a real mix in the list, the justifications on some are puzzling, but like a certain exhibit in the American bit at Duxford, it may mean less airframes in RAFÂ Â museums going forward. Â Â Eamonn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenko Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Having not seen the list in Aeroplane magazine is it possible to put a list up so we all know what is happening.  Thanks  Dick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 As a list has been published, I was told some of the experimental airframes at Cosford were under consideration. There are obvious homes for some of these, think of the 'Dedicated to Manufacturers' museums. Cosford is pushed for undercover space. I imagine things will go forward via BAPC so long as no-one is in a rush. Paperwork has to be processed. It would be a shame not to have these unique exhibits under one roof, but they would be added draws to other museums. They may be sent on loan, or in the case of our F-84F, gifted plus costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Poultney Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 I heard the vulcan B1 cockpit is likely going to another museum, the 707C as well. 12 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said: I did make suggestions about stuff I knew was going, in fact a certain museum is taking a significant large airframe at some future date. Am I reading that right to say another museum is having one from the RAF museum?  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Another museum is having something currently on loan/display elsewhere belonging to the RAF museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 To me Cosford was all about those experimental and exotic types. I would be less inclined to visit again if they weren't there. Â Duncan B 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scimitar F1 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Fine just as long as we do not go back to 1990 - let’s scrap the Beverley and the Canberra B(I)8.  With all these airframes once they are gone they are gone! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 Without being able to see the list it is difficult to form an opinion, but I agree that the test and research aircraft is one of the main reasons for visiting Cosford and it would be horrendous to see the collection broken up. Some of RAFM's exhibits do have a tenuous link, such as the Swiss Venom, RDAF PBY and Dutch Neptune, and I forget how many Spitfires it possesses.  Some rationalisation is not a bad idea, but there is the danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And whatever goes, must do so to a good home. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudge Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 On 15/12/2020 at 22:42, bentwaters81tfw said: ......................I could see that 190 going to Biggin Hill with the 2 seater Spits. Â Not if I win the Lottery first. Â 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 Given how many museums are struggling ATM will there be take up? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanC Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 3 hours ago, Julien said: Given how many museums are struggling ATM will there be take up?  Quite. This year has been catastrophic for the sector. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) This is the list, along with the justification given: Auster Antarctic WE600                         Relevance Avro 707C WZ744                              Significance Bristol Sycamore XJ918                           Duplication DH Devon C.2 VP952                            Significance/Interpretative potential DH Moth G-AAMX                              Relevance Fairchild Cornell II 15252                           Relevance/Completeness Focke-Wulf Fw 190F-8/U1 WkNr.584219            Significance/Duplication Gloster Meteor F.4 EE549                        Significance                            On loan to Tangmere Military Aviation Museum Gloster Meteor T.7(mod) WA634                  Duplication Gloster Meteor F.8 Prone Pilot WK935              Duplication  Hafner Rotachute III P-5                         Relevance                              On loan to Army Flying Museum Hang-glider (civil)                              Relevance Hawker P.1052 VX272                           Significance                            On loan to Fleet Air Arm Museum Hawker P.1127 XP831                           Significance                            On loan to the Science Museum Hawker Hunter F,1 WT619                       Relevance Hawker Hunter Mk.3 WB188                      Significance                            On loan to Tangmere Military Aviation Museum Lockheed SP-2H Neptune 204                    Relevance/Environment NA B-25J Mitchell 44-29366                      Relevance NA P-51D Mustang 44-73415                     Duplication/Completeness Panavia Tornado XX946                          Relevance SA Jetstream T.1 XX496                            Relevance/Environment Slingsby Sedbergh TX.1 VX275                    Relevance Sopwith Tabloid replica 168                      Originality/Significance Supermarine 517 VV106                         Significance                            On loan to Fleet Air Arm Museum Vickers Vimy replica F8614                       Originality/Significance Westalnd Dragnfly HR.1 VX595                    Relevance/Significance So, after now seeing the list, I have now formed an opinion:  What in the name of God are the incompetent twerps running RAFM thinking of?  Firstly, I can see the disposal of one or two listed aircraft (the Moth, for example) as understandable. But, to want to get rid of the likes of the prone-pilot Meteor and Avro 707, and even the Devon and Tornado prototype, especially under the reasons given, is just plain bonkers. The Neptune and the Jetstream are listed as 'Environmental', which means they've been left outside for so long that they aren't fit for anything, and will probably be scrapped. I can understand questioning the relevance of the USAAF B-25, but if so why is the B-17 not classed the same. How relevant is the civilian-marked Ju 52? A lot less than the record breaking Hunter and Meteor at Tangmere, I should think. Interesting that 'originality' is listed as a justification for the Tabloid and Vimy replicas... better not look too closely at most of the WW1-vintage collection, then. And in terms of justifications, what on earth does 'completeness' mean?  I understand that these airframes will not just be palmed off to just anybody, but the list -and the justifications- seems very bizarre. As to what I said in an earlier post about throwing the baby out with the bathwater? I don't think these turkeys could run a bath in the first place -let alone a museum.   Edited December 28, 2020 by Truro Model Builder 7 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) I think that museums buy with their hearts not heads .Avro 707s aint RAF ,  Duke's Hunter isn't , Prone Meteor either . MoA ,MoS , Boscombe ,Bedford ,Cranfield , maybe but not RAF . Prototypes is another non RAF thing as they didn't enter service  . The difference between RAF and non RAF bought with a brain and not heart . This is obviously a black and white thing instead of the grey . Aviation museum is the catch all for these planes  Edited December 28, 2020 by bzn20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 But under that thinking, nothing in the Flight Test hall is relevant; not the TSR.2, the Short SB.5, the Fairey Delta 2, the EAP. Neither is the Eurofighter DA.2 at Hendon. Neither too are the ex-Swiss Venom or RDAF Catalina, or the Italian CR.42, or the Afghan Hind, or the Cold War MiG-15, MiG-21 and MH-53M, or any of the Japanese or Luftwaffe aircraft. So none of them ought to be in the RAFM's collection, should they?  Meanwhile the Devon and the Jetstream, along with others on that list, most assuredly are RAF aircraft. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 I suspect those airframes already on loan will merely be transferred on paper. As to the 707, I have known for some time where it is heading, but I will wait for official circles to confirm it. Many of the airframes listed are/were stored in a hangar due for demolition due to it's condition. RAFM simply have nowhere to store them. Â The CH53 was slated for our museum until they realised at that time we were not accredited for NMUSAF airframes. We are now, but I don't know how we would take delivery, if they released it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Poultney Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 On 27/12/2020 at 11:37, Truro Model Builder said: Without being able to see the list it is difficult to form an opinion, This has been widely circulated on social media so I hope it is ok to post here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spruecutter96 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 There will obviously be a LOT of politics involved in these choices.  How can the two-seater, original FW-190 be up for consideration due to "Duplication"? I thought it is the only example in existence... There are not many original FW-190's around to begin with. Reproductions, yes, originals, no.  The Hendon Museum has hidden a lot of airframes of genuine historic significance. As previous posters have said, there seems to be no real policy governing which aircraft are put out on display. Additionally, for an aviation enthusiast, a very big part of Cosford's appeal is the fact that many of the airframes are completely unique to the museum.  Chris. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, Truro Model Builder said: But under that thinking, nothing in the Flight Test hall is relevant; not the TSR.2, the Short SB.5, the Fairey Delta 2, the EAP. Neither is the Eurofighter DA.2 at Hendon. Neither too are the ex-Swiss Venom or RDAF Catalina, or the Italian CR.42, or the Afghan Hind, or the Cold War MiG-15, MiG-21 and MH-53M, or any of the Japanese or Luftwaffe aircraft. So none of them ought to be in the RAFM's collection, should they?  Meanwhile the Devon and the Jetstream, along with others on that list, most assuredly are RAF aircraft. This where the RAF Museum has to nail it and decide what and where they are . Is it Test frames and another version of the Science museum ? Would have though RAF was the subject not someone elses plane or a plane that never flew for the RAF . TSR2 and FD2 ? Magic words are Royal Air Force Museum not General military Aviation and experimental museum because that's why there is a pile of planes going  out the doors . They're all important ish in a catch all aviation museum  . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spruecutter96 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 14 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said: The CH53 was slated for our museum until they realised at that time we were not accredited for NMUSAF airframes. We are now, but I don't know how we would take delivery, if they released it. I remember having a walk inside the MH-53 at an open-cockpit evening several years ago. One of the museum volunteers told me that the US air-force had given it to the museum on the proviso that the public were not allowed inside. This seemed a little strange, as we were standing inside it at the time...  Chris.  2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Poultney Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 If the relocation of some of these was entirely up to me and funding wasn’t an issue I’d like to see:  707C to Woodford Prone Meteor to Newark, they already have a few meteors, this would go nicely with them P1127 also to Newark Tornado also to Newark Devon to Midland Air Museum, I know they already have a Dove but the Devon is the RAF one. Fw190 two seater would be moved to Cosford, but if the RAF museum has to get rid of it, send it to Duxford B25 would make an interesting addition to the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington Hunters could go anywhere, there are a lot of very well preserved examples Other Meteors, again plenty of good examples so not fussed where they go 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spruecutter96 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, bzn20 said: This where the RAF Museum has to nail it and decide what and where they are . Is it Test frames and another version of the Science museum ? Would have though RAF was the subject not someone else's plane or a plane that never flew for the RAF . TSR2 and FD2 ? Magic words are Royal Air Force Museum not General military Aviation and experimental museum because that's why there is a pile of planes going  out the doors . They're all important is in a catch all aviation museum  . I, for one, am very glad it's a museum to more than just RAF types. If it were, I doubt I would have visited it more than once. The great variety of the museum's airframes is a major selling-point for me. Chris. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Poultney Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, bzn20 said: This where the RAF Museum has to nail it and decide what and where they are . Is it Test frames and another version of the Science museum ? Would have though RAF was the subject not someone elses plane or a plane that never flew for the RAF . TSR2 and FD2 ? Magic words are Royal Air Force Museum not General military Aviation and experimental museum because that's why there is a pile of planes going  out the doors . They're all important ish in a catch all aviation museum  . If they got rid of the TSR2 there’d be a fair bit of backlash... it’s a very popular exhibit. Personally I think the experimental aircraft that are relevant to the RAF play an important part in telling the story of the RAF, how not every type made it to service and how much experimentation was necessary to get to many of the types we did end up with 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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