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RAF Museum disposals


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I don't know if it has been mentioned here but I caught a glimpse in an article in current Aeroplane Monthly that the RAF Museum is looking to dispose of non relevant aircraft such as the 2 seat Fw190 among them. Any body else see this ?

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Cosford told me 3 years ago there were certain airframes up for disposal at the time we consolidated our deal on the F-84F. Not giving away anything that may be confidential. I did make suggestions about stuff I knew was going, in fact a certain museum is taking a significant large airframe at some future date.

I could see that 190 going to Biggin Hill with the 2 seater Spits.

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Saw the article in Aeroplane a real mix in the list, the justifications on some are puzzling, but like a certain exhibit in the American bit at Duxford, it may mean less airframes in RAF  museums going forward.

 

 

Eamonn

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Having not seen the list in Aeroplane magazine is it possible to put a list up so we all know what is happening.

 

Thanks

 

Dick

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As a list has been published, I was told some of the experimental airframes at Cosford were under consideration. There are obvious homes for some of these, think of the 'Dedicated to Manufacturers' museums. Cosford is pushed for undercover space. I imagine things will go forward via BAPC so long as no-one is in a rush. Paperwork has to be processed.

It would be a shame not to have these unique exhibits under one roof, but they would be added draws to other museums.

They may be sent on loan, or in the case of our F-84F, gifted plus costs.

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I heard the vulcan B1 cockpit is likely going to another museum, the 707C as well. 

12 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

I did make suggestions about stuff I knew was going, in fact a certain museum is taking a significant large airframe at some future date.

Am I reading that right to say another museum is having one from the RAF museum? 

 

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To me Cosford was all about those experimental and exotic types. I would be less inclined to visit again if they weren't there.

 

Duncan B

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  • 2 weeks later...

Without being able to see the list it is difficult to form an opinion, but I agree that the test and research aircraft is one of the main reasons for visiting Cosford and it would be horrendous to see the collection broken up. Some of RAFM's exhibits do have a tenuous link, such as the Swiss Venom, RDAF PBY and Dutch Neptune, and I forget how many Spitfires it possesses.

 

Some rationalisation is not a bad idea, but there is the danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And whatever goes, must do so to a good home.

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On 15/12/2020 at 22:42, bentwaters81tfw said:

......................I could see that 190 going to Biggin Hill with the 2 seater Spits.

 

Not if I win the Lottery first.

 

:pilot:

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3 hours ago, Julien said:

Given how many museums are struggling ATM will there be take up?

 

Quite. This year has been catastrophic for the sector. 

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This is the list, along with the justification given:

  • Auster Antarctic WE600                                                  Relevance
  • Avro 707C WZ744                                                           Significance
  • Bristol Sycamore XJ918                                                   Duplication
  • DH Devon C.2 VP952                                                      Significance/Interpretative potential
  • DH Moth G-AAMX                                                          Relevance
  • Fairchild Cornell II 15252                                                Relevance/Completeness
  • Focke-Wulf Fw 190F-8/U1 WkNr.584219                       Significance/Duplication
  • Gloster Meteor F.4 EE549                                               Significance                                                        On loan to Tangmere Military Aviation Museum
  • Gloster Meteor T.7(mod) WA634                                    Duplication
  • Gloster Meteor F.8 Prone Pilot WK935                           Duplication   
  • Hafner Rotachute III P-5                                                 Relevance                                                           On loan to Army Flying Museum
  • Hang-glider (civil)                                                           Relevance
  • Hawker P.1052 VX272                                                     Significance                                                       On loan to Fleet Air Arm Museum
  • Hawker P.1127 XP831                                                     Significance                                                       On loan to the Science Museum
  • Hawker Hunter F,1 WT619                                              Relevance 
  • Hawker Hunter Mk.3 WB188                                           Significance                                                       On loan to Tangmere Military Aviation Museum
  • Lockheed SP-2H Neptune 204                                        Relevance/Environment
  • NA B-25J Mitchell 44-29366                                           Relevance
  • NA P-51D Mustang 44-73415                                         Duplication/Completeness
  • Panavia Tornado XX946                                                   Relevance
  • SA Jetstream T.1 XX496                                                   Relevance/Environment
  • Slingsby Sedbergh TX.1 VX275                                       Relevance
  • Sopwith Tabloid replica 168                                            Originality/Significance
  • Supermarine 517 VV106                                                 Significance                                                        On loan to Fleet Air Arm Museum
  • Vickers Vimy replica F8614                                              Originality/Significance
  • Westalnd Dragnfly HR.1 VX595                                       Relevance/Significance

So, after now seeing the list, I have now formed an opinion:

 

What in the name of God are the incompetent twerps running RAFM thinking of?

 

Firstly, I can see the disposal of one or two listed aircraft (the Moth, for example) as understandable. But, to want to get rid of the likes of the prone-pilot Meteor and Avro 707, and even the Devon and Tornado prototype, especially under the reasons given, is just plain bonkers. The Neptune and the Jetstream are listed as 'Environmental', which means they've been left outside for so long that they aren't fit for anything, and will probably be scrapped. I can understand questioning the relevance of the USAAF B-25, but if so why is the B-17 not classed the same. How relevant is the civilian-marked Ju 52? A lot less than the record breaking Hunter and Meteor at Tangmere, I should think. Interesting that 'originality' is listed as a justification for the Tabloid and Vimy replicas... better not look too closely at most of the WW1-vintage collection, then. And in terms of justifications, what on earth does 'completeness' mean?

 

I understand that these airframes will not just be palmed off to just anybody, but the list -and the justifications- seems very bizarre. As to what I said in an earlier post about throwing the baby out with the bathwater? I don't think these turkeys could run a bath in the first place -let alone a museum.

 

 

Edited by Truro Model Builder
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I think that museums buy with their hearts not heads .Avro 707s aint RAF ,  Duke's Hunter isn't , Prone Meteor  either . MoA ,MoS , Boscombe ,Bedford ,Cranfield , maybe but not RAF . Prototypes is another non RAF thing as they didn't enter service   .

The difference between RAF and non RAF bought with a brain and not heart . This is obviously a black and white thing instead of the grey .

Aviation museum is the catch all for these planes

 

Edited by bzn20
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But under that thinking, nothing in the Flight Test hall is relevant; not the TSR.2, the Short SB.5, the Fairey Delta 2, the EAP. Neither is the Eurofighter DA.2 at Hendon. Neither too are the ex-Swiss Venom or RDAF Catalina, or the Italian CR.42, or the Afghan Hind, or the Cold War MiG-15, MiG-21 and MH-53M, or any of the Japanese or Luftwaffe aircraft. So none of them ought to be in the RAFM's collection, should they?

 

Meanwhile the Devon and the Jetstream, along with others on that list, most assuredly are RAF aircraft.

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I suspect those airframes already on loan will merely be transferred on paper.

As to the 707, I have known for some time where it is heading, but I will wait for official circles to confirm it.

Many of the airframes listed are/were stored in a hangar due for demolition due to it's condition. RAFM simply have nowhere to store them.

 

The CH53 was slated for our museum until they realised at that time we were not accredited for NMUSAF airframes. We are now, but I don't know how we would take delivery, if they released it.

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On 27/12/2020 at 11:37, Truro Model Builder said:

Without being able to see the list it is difficult to form an opinion,

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This has been widely circulated on social media so I hope it is ok to post here

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There will obviously be a LOT of politics involved in these choices. 

 

How can the two-seater, original FW-190 be up for consideration due to "Duplication"? I thought it is the only example in existence... There are not many original FW-190's around to begin with. Reproductions, yes, originals, no.

 

The Hendon Museum has hidden a lot of airframes of genuine historic significance. As previous posters have said, there seems to be no real policy governing which aircraft are put out on display. Additionally, for an aviation enthusiast, a very big part of Cosford's appeal is the fact that many of the airframes are completely unique to the museum. 

 

Chris. 

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10 minutes ago, Truro Model Builder said:

But under that thinking, nothing in the Flight Test hall is relevant; not the TSR.2, the Short SB.5, the Fairey Delta 2, the EAP. Neither is the Eurofighter DA.2 at Hendon. Neither too are the ex-Swiss Venom or RDAF Catalina, or the Italian CR.42, or the Afghan Hind, or the Cold War MiG-15, MiG-21 and MH-53M, or any of the Japanese or Luftwaffe aircraft. So none of them ought to be in the RAFM's collection, should they?

 

Meanwhile the Devon and the Jetstream, along with others on that list, most assuredly are RAF aircraft.

This where the RAF Museum has to nail it and decide what and where they are . Is it Test frames and another version of the Science museum ? Would have though RAF was the subject not someone elses plane or a plane that never flew for the RAF . TSR2 and FD2 ?  Magic words are 

Royal Air Force Museum not General military Aviation and experimental museum because that's why there is a pile of planes going  out the doors .

They're all important ish in a catch all aviation museum  .

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14 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

The CH53 was slated for our museum until they realised at that time we were not accredited for NMUSAF airframes. We are now, but I don't know how we would take delivery, if they released it.

I remember having a walk inside the MH-53 at an open-cockpit evening several years ago. One of the museum volunteers told me that the US air-force had given it to the museum on the proviso that the public were not allowed inside. This seemed a little strange, as we were standing inside it at the time...

 

Chris.  

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If the relocation of some of these was entirely up to me and funding wasn’t an issue I’d like to see:

 

707C to Woodford

Prone Meteor to Newark, they already have a few meteors, this would go nicely with them

P1127 also to Newark

Tornado also to Newark 

Devon to Midland Air Museum, I know they already have a Dove but the Devon is the RAF one.

Fw190 two seater would be moved to Cosford, but if the RAF museum has to get rid of it, send it to Duxford

B25 would make an interesting addition to the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington

Hunters could go anywhere, there are a lot of very well preserved examples

Other Meteors, again plenty of good examples so not fussed where they go

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3 minutes ago, bzn20 said:

This where the RAF Museum has to nail it and decide what and where they are . Is it Test frames and another version of the Science museum ? Would have though RAF was the subject not someone else's plane or a plane that never flew for the RAF . TSR2 and FD2 ?  Magic words are 

Royal Air Force Museum not General military Aviation and experimental museum because that's why there is a pile of planes going  out the doors .

They're all important is in a catch all aviation museum  .

I, for one, am very glad it's a museum to more than just RAF types. If it were, I doubt I would have visited it more than once. The great variety of the museum's airframes is a major selling-point for me. 

Chris. 

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5 minutes ago, bzn20 said:

This where the RAF Museum has to nail it and decide what and where they are . Is it Test frames and another version of the Science museum ? Would have though RAF was the subject not someone elses plane or a plane that never flew for the RAF . TSR2 and FD2 ?  Magic words are 

Royal Air Force Museum not General military Aviation and experimental museum because that's why there is a pile of planes going  out the doors .

They're all important ish in a catch all aviation museum  .

If they got rid of the TSR2 there’d be a fair bit of backlash... it’s a very popular exhibit. Personally I think the experimental aircraft that are relevant to the RAF play an important part in telling the story of the RAF, how not every type made it to service and how much experimentation was necessary to get to many of the types we did end up with 

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