Sd.Kfz 181 Tiger 1 SUPERTHREAD

[echen]

Thanks @M3talpig. Lets hope Royal Snail do their bit in good time. Looking forward to getting some decent Zimmerit on the Tiger. Made a start on removing the Plasto - a bit paranoid about damaging the underlying plastic - but it will be covered again shortly. Thanks again for your help with this.

Found someone else building the same kit. Looks like he was having similar issues to my initial attempts.

[M3talpig]

2 hours ago, echen said:

Thanks again for your help with this.

Found someone else building the same kit. Looks like he was having similar issues to my initial attempts.

Revel used to be fairly good but their quality has gone downhill rapidly over the last 10 or so years...even uncle nightshift had basically nothing nice to say about one of their kits ..if memory serves he actually titled the video "the worst kit i have ever built" and i did find a video of somebody else trying to build the same kit as you and were having a devil of a job with the tracks .....so far considering some of the problems you have had and the level of patience you have displayed i think its rather admirable that you didn't throw it in the bin ............i can tell you right now i would have done.......anyway hopefully the bits i sent will help you and as i said as soon as i can i will show you how i do zim and you can run with that or modify to suit your on particular needs.

[Longbow]

Tiger 221, S.Pz.Abt. 502. Leningrad front. 

 

I wouldn't actually mind modeling this one, at some point. 

 

[echen]

12 minutes ago, M3talpig said:

"the worst kit i have ever built"

I know the one you mean - it is Revells T90 to which Uncle Nightshift took exception.

He made a good job of it tho'.

[M3talpig]

1 hour ago, Longbow said:

Tiger 221, S.Pz.Abt. 502. Leningrad front. 

 

I wouldn't actually mind modeling this one, at some point. 

That would make for a great diorama...either that chassis has been partially stripped or it had a fairly beefy internal explosion ...the commander's cupola is missing and it looks a bit bare bones doesn't it

[M3talpig]

Just dropped on youtube not a Tiger 1 but his video for a similar situation with a Tiger 1 is linked at the end

 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On 1/6/2022 at 1:31 PM, echen said:

Battling on with the 1/72 Revell Tiger I E.

In order to follow @Sgt.Squarehead's link & length track fitting process I slightly enlarged the axle holes on the wheels and for the sprocket/idler so they are easily movable

However, todays efforts have provoked some suspicions:

1. Somebody put the sprocket together wrong or the moulding is wonky; the sprocket teeth are not offset far enough.

2. Somebody's remedy for the indy links is a bit on the flawed side.

3. Revells's destructions are not entirely accurate.

The indy links won't line up properly with the sprocket drive teeth.

There is no way that the prescribed 6 indy links stuck to the sprocket are going to be enough for the tracks round the underside of the sprocket to point anywhere near the leading roadwheel.

 

Likewise the short section specified for the top of the sprocket to the first road wheel is a bit on the short side too.

Looks to me like at least another 4 will be needed.

Looks like I might need to:

1. Remove the indy links and the sprocket teeth and replace them with parts 19A, foregoing the links on the turret. 

2 Run the long track length from the sprocket, bending as appropriate for the sag and using the 2 short lengths to run to the idler.

 

Just attempted option 1. - this is not going to happen without serious risk to the sprocket rim. Mr Cement S has set really well and the indy links are there for good!

The RHS will, hopefully benefit from lessons learn from the LHS!

 

To be continued. 

 

Ow wow.....You really couldn't have picked a more difficult kit to try this with, as it appears you have discovered.  It looks like you are on the right track (excuse the pun), but it's going to be a challenge!

 

As it appears that I am largely responsible for getting you into this project, please be assured that I have your back (15 sets of track & 10 sets of wheels are at your diposal & on standby for immediate deployment).

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:47 PM, echen said:

I know the one you mean - it is Revells T90 to which Uncle Nightshift took exception.

He made a good job of it tho'.

 

He seems to be very upset about very little.....Maybe he should try building the ACE T-90? 

 

Sympathise slightly with his comments about the non-bendy tracks.....L&L would have been a better bet.  I absolutely sympathise with his comments about Revell's instructions, but they are very far from the only culprit.

 

He does a fine job of adding scratch-built detail, but there's plenty of aftermarket options (ie: every single item he complains about, including the bolts) for those without his obvious expertise, skill & patience (I love the texturing on the skirts).

 

His comments about S-Model's tracks seem very out of place as they are usually by far the weakest features of those kits.....This is what they did for their Panther:

 

 

Here's their M3A3 Stuart:

 

 

 

Quality stuff! 

 

AFAIK they've made one vaguely decent set of tracks, for their Type 99:

 

 

Nice(ish) tracks, but the rest of the kit is wrong (or redundant as a Type-99 at least, it's an older prototype). 

 

He also sings the praises of Trumpeter, another Chinese company who managed to get their own Type-99A even more wrong than S-Model did (S-Model is a mostly accurate model of largely non-existent vehicle and Trumpeter's is an utterly horrendous rendition of the actual production variant)! 

 

I could go on (& on & on & on). 

PS - So I will:

 

Trumpeter managed to put the ammo feed of the DShK on their IS-3 on the wrong side of the gun! 

 

The turret hatches of their Shermans look more like ballistic missile launch silos.

 

Their FAMO, one of the few truly magnificent kits in their 1/72 range, came with instructions that ensured 8 out of 10 modellers messed up the front suspension and with indy-link tracks (ie: just links, no lengths), but apparently it was deemed equally suitable for children as Revell's T-90A.

 

Then there's Trumpeter's box-art for their current 1/72 kits, which invariably features a photograph of a nicely built and well painted example of their 1/35 kit. 

 

 

 

 

[M3talpig]

Think ole Mark Felton done messed up ...and really upset a few people....don't make zee Chermans angry ...you wont like them when they are angry

 

https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugkx_jc7512xf7uYXReMrVY3huvOm_yrkOzK

[Jochen Barett]

2 hours ago, M3talpig said:

Think ole Mark Felton done messed up ...and really upset a few people....don't make zee Chermans angry ...you wont like them when they are angry

 

https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugkx_jc7512xf7uYXReMrVY3huvOm_yrkOzK

Ralf Raths from the Panzermuseum is a tolerant, agreeable and adorable man, and he will punch anybody saying something different right in the face.

 

Mark Felton comitted an unforced error (even contradicting his own previous work) and you wonder what made him do so. Ralf Raths came to the conclusion it wasn't just by accident or the regular being dumb of youtubers but in search of a sensational statement touching the museum's director's most vulnerable spot.

 

Do read the full statement https://daspanzermuseum.de/regarding-mark-feltons-king-tiger-still-in-lake-video/

"

Dear Tank Community,

we normally don’t comment on tank videos of other YouTubers except to praise especially good content. This time we have to write a critical comment, though, since Mark Feltons latest video is close to slander. +++"

 

Somebody does feel insulted and feels the urge to set things straight without making a fool of himself.

 

It's not Bovington and sometimes you are witnessing the learning process of making videos AND SOUND RECORDING, still a good place to waste time: https://www.youtube.com/c/DasPanzermuseum/featured

[M3talpig]

16 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

Ralf Raths from the Panzermuseum is a tolerant, agreeable and adorable man, and he will punch anybody saying something different right in the face.

[Andy J]

11 hours ago, M3talpig said:

Sounds like a charming chap....bet he wears a Millwall scarf 😆👍

[Pig of the Week]

48 minutes ago, Andy J said:

Sounds like a charming chap....bet he wears a Millwall scarf 😆👍

Or one 'o them red arm bands.. with a white spot... and  a lil' black spidey thing in the middle.....

[Whitewolf]

On 15/11/2021 at 06:28, Jasper dog said:

Cheers bud, didn't think you'd let us down! 

 

Does this mean 142 is on the cards??

142 was painted in Italian 'Pea Green'. The Germans used whatever paint was available. I completely disagree with the two tone idea, the colour pic above clearly shows one overall colour and photos of 131 on trials in the UK after being shipped back clearly show one overall colour. 

[M3talpig]

5 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

142 was painted in Italian 'Pea Green'. The Germans used whatever paint was available.

Yes have seen the speculation about the first few 501 Tigers to arrive in country being whatever was available( from captured U.S. olive drab to various shades of British and Canadian greens)..especially 142 although the pea green is new to me ...if you have a source for that it would be appreciated.

 

As for 131 the black and white pics are of very limited use as the contrast for the tropic scheme is almost completely lost especially on period film stock...David willey the curator at Bovington did a lot of personal digging on this and have to say unless you actually have hard proof of your thoughts on this i would go with his rather exhaustive list of evidence....including the actual paint chips from the original paint from 131...nevertheless an endlessly interesting subject and one i have no problems discussing for hours.

[M3talpig]

This pic was taken at Aberdeen USA of 712 (the earliest known Tiger one still in existence) and this is period colour image not a b&w recolour.....this is also before she was cut up for the school and pre any kind of restoration work..it not only shows the turret numbers are not red with white outlines (for years it was thought that they were red) but it shows the tropen scheme quite well albeit very faded.

 

[Whitewolf]

3 hours ago, M3talpig said:

Yes have seen the speculation about the first few 501 Tigers to arrive in country being whatever was available( from captured U.S. olive drab to various shades of British and Canadian greens)..especially 142 although the pea green is new to me ...if you have a source for that it would be appreciated.

 

As for 131 the black and white pics are of very limited use as the contrast for the tropic scheme is almost completely lost especially on period film stock...David willey the curator at Bovington did a lot of personal digging on this and have to say unless you actually have hard proof of your thoughts on this i would go with his rather exhaustive list of evidence....including the actual paint chips from the original paint from 131...nevertheless an endlessly interesting subject and one i have no problems discussing for hours.

There is a publication that includes B&W pics of 131 on Trials after arriving in the UK, I have it somewhere, and these clearly show one overall colour. I also saw her over fifty years ago in what was the original museum in her overall finish, faded in places with dark grey gently showing under a clearly sand battered finish. I  have a souvenir programme somewhere with a pic that clearly shows it. All the German vehicles including the King Tiger Prototype, the Jagdtiger and Panther plus 131 were all in their original colours as captured and looked considerably different to the sad repaints they have today.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Whitewolf

[M3talpig]

20 minutes ago, Whitewolf said:

I also saw her over fifty years ago in what was the original museum in her overall finish

Well i must say (and i hate to admit this lol) i too saw her before her restoration and again when just the turret was being displayed ...and will freely admit in my memory i do not remember her to be anything other than dunkelgelb.... you could be right and i'm open to that ..... even the best museums make mistakes and just because it was on an ordnance spec sheet for the year of delivery for instance doesn't necessarily make it so...a good example is the headlights being moved to the glacis front by the field workshops of the 501st....and not to mention other mods that were carried out in similar vein by workshops on the Russian front. You may well be right and there working of paperwork that stated this was to be.... but maybe not implemented...i do know there were Tiger that were slated to be sent to North Africa that ended up on the Russian front that were delivered in the tropen scheme....sure there are pics of some of those vehicles. Honestly if i had to base what i know on my memory versus what David Willey and his team came up with i have to say i would go with David for now...but as i said if the evidence is clear that 131 was indeed Dunkelgelb then i'm all for that too.

 

As for 142 several people have said she too was a tropen scheme Tiger and have to again say that i disagree with that, she at least to me was a green of some description and having read a lot of the arguments for that didn't see anything in there so called proof that would sway me from that conclusion...so your argument on 131 could well stand up also....been trying to find the pics i took of her when i saw her all those years ago ..without much success. Perhaps we could ask the community for there assistance and see if anybody has colour pics of 131 pre restoration.

And thank you for bringing this up ...these conversations are important...never a bad thing to question an accepted point of view it's how we unlock the truth...if you do find anything more on this subject let me know.

 

Steve

[M3talpig]

This video with David does show how hard even in fresh paint it is to differentiate between the two colours now imagine the paint is 40 plus years old and fairly mistreated and after the trials the British put it through...as i said i do have an open mind on this but i can also see how black and white only footage would make it very hard to tell for sure especially on battered paint and under poor lighting...this is under studio quality lighting and still very hard to tell.

 

 

[M3talpig]

This was also interesting

 

 

[Whitewolf]

1 hour ago, M3talpig said:

Well i must say (and i hate to admit this lol) i too saw her before her restoration and again when just the turret was being displayed ...and will freely admit in my memory i do not remember her to be anything other than dunkelgelb.... you could be right and i'm open to that ..... even the best museums make mistakes and just because it was on an ordnance spec sheet for the year of delivery for instance doesn't necessarily make it so...a good example is the headlights being moved to the glacis front by the field workshops of the 501st....and not to mention other mods that were carried out in similar vein by workshops on the Russian front. You may well be right and there working of paperwork that stated this was to be.... but maybe not implemented...i do know there were Tiger that were slated to be sent to North Africa that ended up on the Russian front that were delivered in the tropen scheme....sure there are pics of some of those vehicles. Honestly if i had to base what i know on my memory versus what David Willey and his team came up with i have to say i would go with David for now...but as i said if the evidence is clear that 131 was indeed Dunkelgelb then i'm all for that too.

 

As for 142 several people have said she too was a tropen scheme Tiger and have to again say that i disagree with that, she at least to me was a green of some description and having read a lot of the arguments for that didn't see anything in there so called proof that would sway me from that conclusion...so your argument on 131 could well stand up also....been trying to find the pics i took of her when i saw her all those years ago ..without much success. Perhaps we could ask the community for there assistance and see if anybody has colour pics of 131 pre restoration.

And thank you for bringing this up ...these conversations are important...never a bad thing to question an accepted point of view it's how we unlock the truth...if you do find anything more on this subject let me know.

 

Steve

I have a souvenir booklet with a lovely colour picture taken in very good light showing 131 the Panther, King Tiger Prototype V2 and the Jagdtiger all in original colours as captured.....with 131 in one overall colour, which has been applied over a dark grey (which the Tanks arrived in)...Dunkelgelb or Desert Sand? With 142, I read an article in a book called Arms & Armour in North Africa which explained that due to paint shortages the Afrika Corps made use of surplus Italian stocks and a small number of Tiger 1s were painted in a 'Pea Green' which no doubt has an official Italian colour designation...possibly a faded FS34159?

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Whitewolf

[Stef N.]

This popped up and maybe of use to some of the interior builders. There's a link that will take you to the full diagram.

 

 

[Whitewolf]

10 hours ago, M3talpig said:

This was also interesting

 

 

That was very interesting, good to see the Tiger 2 Prototype V2 and Jagdtiger back in the overall colours they were captured in. Neither saw action. As for the production Tiger 2, I understand some zimmerit was added using car body filler...., as for the colour scheme, there were so many variations, who knows? 

 

 

[M3talpig]

1 hour ago, Whitewolf said:

That was very interesting, good to see the Tiger 2 Prototype V2 and Jagdtiger back in the overall colours they were captured in. Neither saw action. As for the production Tiger 2, I understand some zimmerit was added using car body filler...., as for the colour scheme, there were so many variations, who knows? 

 

 

Yes i thought so .....think the pre production King Tiger was a soft steel not armoured if memory serves...104 is the right colours just not sure they followed the same pattern as when she was shipped back to England...an impressive beast when you stand next to her though....very intimidating you can see why they struck fear into your average Sherman driver. 

 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

20 hours ago, M3talpig said:

This pic was taken at Aberdeen USA of 712 (the earliest known Tiger one still in existence) and this is period colour image not a b&w recolour.....this is also before she was cut up for the school and pre any kind of restoration work..it not only shows the turret numbers are not red with white outlines (for years it was thought that they were red) but it shows the tropen scheme quite well albeit very faded.

 

 

I built that one, based on an another, presumably later 'post-restoration' image, the green appeared much deeper & bluer (closer to a Russian base colour) in the image I worked from.....Most of the hull fittings were missing, as were the 'skirts'.

 

I used the Revel 1/72 Ausf.H for my build.....It may or may not make @echen feel better to know that the tracks were a bloody nightmare (hence me having all those spares).....Have a feeling I may join this thread with a Revell/Dragon kit-bash, see if I can conquer those bloody awful tracks once & for all.