Ammo F-104G - Italian markings query

[Filler]

I wonder if anyone could shed any light on the Italian Air Force markings provided in the Ammo F-104G kit?

 

The reason for my query is that I really want to build a camouflaged Italian Starfighter (48th scale), ideally circa 1987 - with the lo-vis smaller grey(?) codes, but still the larger roundels. Unfortunately this is proving difficult, no, actually impossible as the Sky Models decals were the only option and they are unobtainable.

 

So accepting a slightly earlier large white coded aircraft, there is the Ammo kit with these markings:

Fin emblem (3º Stormo), no tail flash, Wimbledon tennis badge?? I can't find any trace of Ammo citing a year or unit for these.

https://www.facebook.com/MigJimenez/photos/pcb.2942627419084279/2942278235785864

 

Actual aircraft (but not THE actual aircraft)

1986 Red flash (132 Gruppo, 3º Stormo) blue & white badge on intake

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Italy-Air-Force/Lockheed-Fiat-F-104G-Starfighter/211729/L?qsp=eJwljUsOwjAMRO/iNUiE8u0OFrCkCy5gJVYTEZrIsQRV1bvjlN1ont7MBDYNQl95jpmghULI1sMKMjK%2BC7QTYOAYhgobc9zulTkU6nyS1DNmT06ROZ8OSl40fhI79eC2NpvdXbuSWK6jNlW7WEtZVPn3D3bEFVGxy2mvP0YDcbdkaOqsCyVHXDZIMESY5x%2B2xzsH

 

1986 Yellow flash (28 Gruppo, 3º Stormo) yellow& black badge on intake

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Italy-Air-Force/Lockheed-Fiat-F-104G-Starfighter/491643/L?qsp=eJwljUsOwjAMRO/iNUiE8u0OFrCkCy5gJVYTEZrIsQRV1bvjlN1ont7MBDYNQl95jpmghULI1sMKMjK%2BC7QTYOAYhgobc9zulTkU6nyS1DNmT06ROZ8OSl40fhI79eC2NpvdXbuSWK6jNlW7WEtZVPn3D3bEFVGxy2mvP0YDcbdkaOqsCyVHXDZIMESY5x%2B2xzsH

 

So it looks to me as if Ammo have either got it wrong or have picked a bit of an oddball example.

 

The most annoying thing is that I have the Hasegawa F-104S kit (1/48) which has some very nice earlier makings (large white codes) and there is an Xtradecal sheet that has small codes, but also small mid 90's roundels. I could mix these, but the Xtradecal set is slightly underwhelming as despite claiming 1989, it looks to be more mid 90's with very subdued markings. I could actually live with the nice kit markings except that the biggest problem with this option is simply that the Hasegawa kit is apparently riddled with fictitious rivets, has undersized wings and is missing most of the features that actually makes it an S, not a mislabeled G. It seemingly requires about £50 quids worth of Daco aftermarket to make right.

 

If anyone can either shed light on the Ammo markings or knows of another way to get some nice late 80's markings, I would be very grateful.

[Filler]

Sorry, after typing all that, it took me about another ten minutes to find out that the Ammo markings are for 18 Gruppo of 3 Stormo (3rd reconnaissance group) and that probably puts it circa 1977. Oh well. Anyone know if Sky Models still exist to possibly re-issue the F-104 sheet?

[Giorgio N]

You're unfortunately touching a somewhat hot topic..... the decals proposed in the Ammo kit box seem to be based on a drawing of an aircraft of which the serial number is not known and there seems to be no pictures around.

Now some facts... the marking on the intake is the one of 18° Gruppo, a unit that was part of 3° Stormo and was equipped with the F-104G from 1974 to 1977, when the unit was disbanded. The Stormo was not disbanded and the other 2 Gruppo of the unit continued to use the F-104G for many years, until the retirement of the type in 1990 (32°) and 1993 (28°).

Now what does this mean... you can still build a 3-05 but you will need different markings for the Gruppo badge and, if you want to build a later aircraft, for the fin flash and the "Buscaglia" signature. See this one in 1985 for example:

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Stars/wA3-05P.htm

I do have a picture of an earlier 3-05, in this case MM6518 of 132 Gruppo in 1978. For this you would only need the gruppo badge on the intake as there's only the Stormo badge on the fin.

 

An alternative is to keep the group badges and use different numbers, like in this case 3-02:

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Stars/wA3-02.htm

However this would still be an early aircraft

 

Now where can decals be found... Sky Models shut down several years ago so no hope of a reissue of their sheet, you have to keep searching on the usual channels.

Tauromodel can be one alternative, although their sheets are not the easiest to use... Tauro had the habit of making sheets of numbers, sheets of roundels, sheet of unit markings... this means that to build a single aircraft you may need up to 3 sheets. Of course you can still use the kit roundels and say build an aircraft with only different numbers, in this case only a sheet of numbers would work. Not all Tauro decals are in production at the moment, in any case they are relative easy to find . The ones available in 1/48 are here:

http://www.tauromodel.it/ElencoOggetti.aspx?GenereSelezionato=1&FamSelezionata=Decae&ScalaSelezionata=2&Qualesito=2

They deliver to the UK with no problem.

 

Unfortunately I can't think of any other decal sheet including a 3° Stormo F-104. If you want a late aircraft with low-vis roundels and codes a small number of Gs were used by 20° Gruppo of 4° Stormo, the F-104 OCU. Unit markings again may not be easy to find though

Alternatively there's a very unusual option and that would be an early camouflaged aircraft from the same 4° Stormo, like the one below:

https://www.aviation-report.com/arrivo-in-italia-del-primo-lockheed-f-104-starfighter/#jp-carousel-15349

 

Now these aircraft had black codes, that lasted very little before being replaced by the white ones. No badge was carried on the intakes, with only the Stormo badge on the fin. One difference in terms of decals is the use of standard stencils in English only, that however should be easy to find in sheets dedicated to other users.. for example the ones for the Norwegian aircraft in the same box. Of course there are no decals for one of these aircraft, but the prancing horse and black numbers can be easily printed at home

Unfortunately I do not know the serial number for the 104 in the picture. This should be on the lower rear fuselage.

 

 

[Giorgio N]

Actually I was wrong in my previous post, there was another company that had sheets for the 3 Stormo F-104Gs... it was DM Special Colors, that had a few sheets for some aircraft with special markings. They had a couple of G from 3° Stormo, one of them this one:

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Stars/wA3-32.htm

This company is also now closed but Mister Kit in italy seems to have a few sheets left. Not cheap...

[Filler]

Thanks so much @Giorgio N for such a clear explanation about 3° Stormo and it’s various Gruppo.

 

It's both a shame and incredibly frustrating when any manufacturer makes these weird and easily avoidable mistakes. I think I have found the illustration of a quite possibly non existent aircraft that they appear to have used. So many better looking squadron markings available of aircraft that were often photographed - the  "Buscaglia" signature tails for starters! The mind boggles at their decision making.

 

It further frustrates me that Italian aircraft often aren’t well treated (in my area of interest at least) with 80’s AMI Tornados being another often overlooked subject.

 

So I guess my best options are to;

 

A. Get the Ammo kit and wait and hope to one day stumble across the Sky Models sheet.

 

B. Go a little early with large white codes and use my Hasegawa F-104S kit and shell out fifty notes on a Daco set to actually make it an S.

 

C. As per B. except just try to forget that it’s actually an undersized winged G with just the extra ventral fins, and knuckle down to filling in a few hundred rivets.

 

D. Knock it on the head completely and buy and build a Kinetic Luftwaffe G instead.

[JeffreyK]

I would go with the Ammo kit and just put on different numbers of a verified aircraft, as per Giorgio's post. Perhaps best made with some custom cut paint masks.

If you want to make an S though you can buy each runner form the Daco set separately. You don't have to buy the whole set.

J

[Giorgio N]

One other option could be to get the Kinetik kit and hope that someone will issue a new decal sheet for Italian aircraft...

Jeffrey's suggestion of using paint masks is actually a good one, in 1/48 those large codes are easy to apply in this way. Another option is to cut the numbers from white solid decal sheet... or just use the Tauro numbers.

Alternatively I wonder if the Daco parts for the S could be adapted on the Kinetik kit... never tried it myself though, may end up becoming a nightmare

 

I did a bit more searching in the meantime and found that Xtradecal offers an early camouflaged aircraft 6° Stormo with large black numbers in sheet X48209. This unit only operated the G variant and went straight to the Tornado without receiving the S.

 

I am a bit puzzled myself with AMMO's choice, more so as they pride themselves in offering products for "serious" modellers... They had a build of this aircraft on their Facebook page and it while wonderfully built and painted, it was full of errors. Guess that they are followers of a "school" that insists more on the "artistic" result rather than on the accuracy of the technical details.

 

[Filler]

Thanks again @Giorgio N and also @JeffreyK for taking time to reply and research options.

 

I am leaning towards the option of the Hasegawa kit with some of the Daco parts to build an S model. Having the kit already means I need only buy the necessary Daco parts and of the three marking options in the kit, I rather like the 23º Gruppo 5º Stormo. It looks really good, there were two aircraft in these markings at IAT 85 (which is only fractionally before my target date of 87) and Model Alliance do a set with these same markings and that is useful in case the Hasegawa decals prove problematic.

 

So now I just need to work out which spures I need to get from the Daco set - although the S bits seem to be spread across most of the sprues.

 

On the point of disappointing choices by manufacturers; I also found on Hannants that there is Xtradecal sheet X48210 which includes markings for an F-104S. However, again I am somewhat left scratching my head as they have chosen markings that don’t appear to have been widely applied and are an example of the lo-vis markings taken to their extreme on the camouflaged aircraft. And to boot they say it’s “'4-21' of 9 Gruppo/4 Stormo, Aeronautica Militare, (Italian Air Force), based at Grosetto, Italy, 1989”. Well I’ve yet to find a single photo of any camouflaged F-104S with the tiny roundels, very dark grey code numbers and miniature wing badge before about 1995. I’m not saying that this aircraft did not exist, but they’ve possibly got the year wrong and they’ve certainly picked something very obscure and frankly underwhelming. That wouldn’t be so bad if there were other options out there for more common markings, but there aren’t. Thank you Ammo and Xtradecal.

[Giorgio N]

F-104S in camouflage with grey codes and small roundels would as you say have been later than 1989, in that year the roundels would have been the older large ones. There were also different kind of experiments done with the codes around 1989, with different styles tried before settling on the ones adopted later. On the potential interest of the camo/small roundels/grey codes/ low vis badges Starfighters, they are IMHO quite unusual and worth considering, but yes, they are not very common.

 

If you intend to build the Hasegawa kit as an S, keep in mind that this variant had a certain evolution, so better check your aircraft. I suggest using google translator to read this page, that contains a lot of useful information accompanied by pictures. I you have any doubt about the translation (automated translators often are not the best with technical content), just ask me.

 

https://modelingtime.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17306

 

The most important sprue in the Daco set should be Sprue B, that includes the intakes and other parts. Some parts are also in Sprue D but they may be less critical