Kittyhawk III in the RCAF

[Blimpyboy]

I've read that the RCAF had a few Kittyhawk IIIs. However, the only photo I could find that looks vaguely (to me) like a Kittyhawk III is this one:

https://www.facebook.com/RcafAbbotsford/photos/2351772541580601 

 

Now, I'm no real P-40 fan (they're all Flying Tigers to me), so this could just be an E model.

Does anyone have any information regarding Kittyhawk IIIs in the RCAF. And, if so, does anyone have any camouflage and markings info?

 

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited December 13, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Canada received 15 mark III/P-40M, RCAF serials 831 to 845, Taken on Strength 26 January to 5 February 1943.  USAAF serials, in order, 43-5706, 5778, 5699, 5691, 5779, 5794, 5786, 5787, 5698, 5802, 5811, 5803, 5812, 5810, 5795.  There were also 35 Kittyhawk IV/P-40N

The 8 survivors were struck of strength on 23 August 1946.  Mentions of Western Air Command, 5 and 8 OTU and 132 and 135 squadrons in the mark III and IV listings.

[Scott Hemsley]

PM sent.

 

Scott

[Paul J]

111 Squadron RCAF used the P-40E on the west coast at PatriciaBay, Vancouver Island and from the Aleutians/ Alaska

[tonyot]

The photo you`ve shown dos look like a Kittyhwk Mk.I. Some Mk.III`s were used,..... the colour film Son of Lassie, filmed at RCAF Patricia By in 1944-45 does show one Kittyhawk Mk.III,.... see attached;

https://www.impdb.org/index.php?title=Son_of_Lassie

 

It could be an early P-40N with the scallop windows still retained behind the cockpit,..... P-40N`s, Mk.IV`s with the later style canopy were also based there too.

 

On the majority of Mk.III`s and later, the rear fuselage was extended, putting the tail fin and rudder behind the horizontal stabiliser,.... on the earlier variants the tail was level with the fin. The Merlin engined Mk.II had both styles,.... but that doesn`t apply here anyway.

 

Cheers

           Tony

Edited December 16, 2020 by tonyot

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    after the hurricane stuff there is some p-40 photos

   

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/337/Bull-Dogs-on-the-Coast.aspx

 

also 

 

https://www.rcaf111fsquadron.com/aircraft.html

 

and 

 

http://silverhawkauthor.com/canadian-warplanes-3-the-second-world-war-curtiss-p40-kittyhawk_711.html

 

   cheers

      jerry

Edited December 13, 2020 by brewerjerry

[dogsbody]

Here is some intel, sent to me by Carl Vincent, for posting here.

 

"  

1.         The RCAF’s 15 Kittyhawk III’s were fed into the squadrons as replacements soon after delivery. The majority went to 132 (F) while a few, judging by photographic evidence, were delivered to 118 (F) on Annette Island, Alaska. Most of the survivors went to 5 OTU after 132 (F) was disbanded in early September 1944.

2.         As far as colour schemes go, they were delivered in standard USAAF colours but were eventually refinished in DE/DG upper surfaces. It seems probable that in their late 132 (F) service they may have been repainted in the green and grey colours that that unit pioneered.

3.         The photos show:

            1.         The future RCAF 832 after a delivery mishap at Rockliffe.

            2.         Kittyhawk III 831 soon after delivery to 132 (F) at Boundary Bay.

            3.         Kittyhawk III 844 with 132 (F) after being re-camouflaged. In this and the previous photo the aircraft have 132 (F)’s white spinner.

4.         As a matter of irrelevant interest, while the RCAF was quite satisfied with the Kittyhawk III, the standard Kittyhawk IV or, at least, the early ones were declared totally unsuitable for operational service. As a result, a major RCAF program was instituted to convert them to Kittyhawk III’s which involved a major hunt through the US to find the requisite parts. This conversion, although it lacked some features, was carried out, but the Mark numbers were unchanged. "

 

Carl

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Carl

[Bruce Archer]

On 12/13/2020 at 4:39 AM, Blimpyboy said:

I've read that the RCAF had a few Kittyhawk IIIs. However, the only photo I could find that looks vaguely (to me) like a Kittyhawk III is this one:

https://www.facebook.com/RcafAbbotsford/photos/2351772541580601 

 

Now, I'm no real P-40 fan (they're all Flying Tigers to me), so this could just be an E model.

Does anyone have any information regarding Kittyhawk IIIs in the RCAF. And, if so, does anyone have any camouflage and markings info?

 

 

Thanks in advance!

Do not forget the P-40K/Kittyhawk III lent to the RCAF in Alaska. I cannot remember the Sqn or location, I will need to look further. Sweating Beaver ( IPMS Canada) has 1/48th scale decals for them.

 

Bruce

[Buz]

Bruce

 

The P-40K-1's were used by 111 Squadron

 

Buz

Edited December 15, 2020 by Buz

[Blimpyboy]

On 12/14/2020 at 4:08 AM, tonyot said:

the colour film Son of Lassie, filmed at RCAF Patricia By in 1944-45 does show one Kittyhawk Mk.III,

 Man, that film is a gift that keeps on giving!

 

 

On 12/14/2020 at 4:08 AM, tonyot said:

It could be an early P-40N with the scallop windows still retained behind the cockpit

I am starting to learn this pitfall - I've been fooled by more than a few RNZAF P-40Ns that have the 'M' scallop!

 

 

On 12/14/2020 at 6:17 AM, dogsbody said:

Here is some intel, sent to me by Carl Vincent

Brilliant! My thanks to you both!

 

 

On 12/14/2020 at 6:17 AM, dogsbody said:

3.         Kittyhawk III 844 with 132 (F) after being re-camouflaged. In this and the previous photo the aircraft have 132 (F)’s white spinner.

I presume this has the DE/DG combination rather than the green/grey combination. Would that be right?

 

 

And a big thanks overall, to everyone!

 

P.S. Merry Christmas - I hope this COVID embuggerance improves for you all soon.

 

[Carl V]

I have been interested in the posts concerning the RCAF’s Kittyhawk III’s and I would like to contribute a few more comments that might be of interest.

1.            Despite its proliferation in publications etc., often by people who should know better, the RCAF never possessed P-40 E’s. The major model operated was the Kittyhawk I of which 72 were obtained from the RAF’s direct contract.

2.            On the other hand, 111 (F) did fly the distinctively marked P-40 E’s of the USAAF’s 11th Pursuit during its time on Umnak July/October 1942 when it formed F Flight of that unit.

3.            The nine P-40 K 1’s that were directly acquired from the USAAF for use by 111 (F) in September 1942 were not a loan but a purchase. They were carried on strength as P-40 K’s, never as any type of Kittyhawk.

4.            The wheels of bureaucracy turn slowly but, in the spring of 1943, Canada finally got around to paying for the Kittyhawks it had received. This accounts for the fact that in May 1943 the RCAF Kittyhawk I’s and I a’s adopted RCAF serials to replace the former RAF ones. The intention was to do the same for the surviving 8 P-40 K’s. However, at that time, the USAAF and RCAF in the Aleutians, finding that P-40’s were becoming scarce, decided that it would be more convenient if the RCAF P-40 K’s became part of the joint pool and, for administrative purposes, would be transferred to the US. Fortunately, in that theatre, bureaucracy had, to some degree, been short-circuited and the P-40 K’s had simply been turned over to the RCAF on the signature of a shipping note. In a surprisingly intelligent decision, the aircraft were handed back with no more said.

5.            As a matter of interest, when 14 (F) was flying the last of the series of RCAF strikes on Kiska, its USAAF P-40 K’s were decorated with a hybrid insignia consisting of the RCAF roundel superimposed on the US stars and bars.

6.            To Tony O’Toole: thanks for posting that Son of Lassie shot which I had totally forgotten when I mentioned the possibility of the Kittyhawk III’s ending up in green and grey – senile distraction I guess.

7.            The background to this photo is that the day before this sequence was filmed on 14 August 1944, a flight of 135 (F)’s Kittyhawks did the flying scenes but 132 (F) had just flown in on their way to Boundary Bay (where they would be disbanded in a few weeks) and so formed an interesting background.

8.            What particularly interested me about the aircraft in the foreground is that it has the distinctive yin-yang wheel cover of 118 (F) which strengthens the possibility that this was a former 118 (F) aircraft. Not proof positive, of course, as a wheel cover is hardly an integral part of the airframe.

9.            While photographic evidence indicates that 118 (F) did operate Kittyhawk III’s, the RCAF aircraft records ignore this. This is not in any way surprising, as any historian who, like myself, has used these inventory cards over the last half-century realizes that they are far from accurate. The Kittyhawk records, in particular, are riddled with highly significant omissions.

10.          The colours for 844 are, indeed, DE/DG.

11.          I hope the foregoing has not been too long-winded for a modelling forum.

Carl