Polikarpov I-17

[Graham Boak]

I've almost struggled to the end with the early AModel kit, but when trying to work out the undercarriage was disappointed to learn that I lacked references to the type.  The best I found, honest, was the old William Green Famous Fighters pocket book, but it did point out something missing from the kit namely radiators.  The plan view shows a box suspended from the port wing, and another one (presumably) semi-retracted under the other.  The kit panelling is no help.  Can anyone provide detail, particularly a side view and guide to the mechanism?  No need to be too precise, the model doesn't rate it.

 

I suspect there may be something better in the Midland Counties Red Star book on the Polikarpov fighters,  but annoyingly this appears to be the one relevant book in this series I haven't got.

[Bobk]

this may help. https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/I-17/index.html. Please understand that there where several prototypes for the I-17 with several differences between them. Please understand that Amodel has produced both major "flavors" of I-17 the TsKB-17 with outward retracting undercarriage and the TkKB-19 with inward retracting undercarriage. There were several other differences between them other than the undercarriage one of which was where the radiators where placed.

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Bobk

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

3-view drawings of I-17 can be found on the following link:

http://airwar.ru/other/draw/polikarpovi-17aviacija.html

Cheers

Jure

[Pin]

http://airwar.ru/other/draw/i17.html

http://airwar.ru/other/draw/i17-2.html

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Thanks very much for these, it certainly makes the radiator shape and fit clearer even though the drawings seem to contradict each other in places.   Plus it does point out that the engine doesn't just need cooling but also an air intake - silly me!  I think it seems that the actual lowered radiator has side pieces going up into the wing rather than a central support as in the pocket book drawings.  Quite how it all fits in as another matter, and there is a suggestion that it is all radiator below the wing therefore it was fixed - or maybe partially retractable giving more exposure for take-off power?  Possibly illustrations of development to cope with an overheating engine?  Obviously there is a considerable tale to be told about this type, that doesn't appear to have been available in English (as yet).  Handling the model from different angles does show a closer relationship to the standard TSAGI monoplane fighter configuration used in the war then ever appears from the side view.  The model has already reached the stage where only some quick bodge is feasible, rather than ripping apart and starting again.

 

I did search Amazon for MCP's Red Star books but they only had I-16 and Biplane Fighters, not an overall study.  However a new book on Polikarpov and his fighters has just appeared, so I've an order in for that.

[Pin]

2 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

drawings seem to contradict each other in places. 

 

There were at least three prototypes built very different from each other so you need to choose which ( TsKB-15, TsKB-19 or TsKB-19bis) do you want to represent. 

 

[Graham Boak]

It looks as though the TsKB-19bis is the nearest to the kit, although given what's missing it could be either the 19 or 19bis.

[Pin]

AModel did TsKB-15

 

and TsKB-19

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I don't have the box art any more but it was different from the above and shows the Paris Show scheme with two guns in each wing and a central air intake similar to both artworks above.  A quick look at the heading on the instructions says I-17 TsKB 15.

[Pin]

Scalemates is our friend

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/amodel-7203-polikarpov-i-17--196260

 

 

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi, 

The first prototype TsKB-15 is still well preserved in the Chkalow museum; on photos, it shows a outwards-retracting landing gear later, later  replaced by a fixed one after that it demonstrated unreliable; it had a flat cooler, retractable behind the engine under the fuselage. It still has the original livery, or accurately restored, in red with blue nose as shown in the boxart.

the plane shown in Paris was the TsKB-19, the second prototype. It had the same forward-opening canopy of the first one and a clean nose.

In my old page, that would deserve some updating now, I have an even older profile in white and red adapted from an LK of the '80s, but now it is clear that the real plane was in a light color overall with darker nose (blue or red?), and the dark thing on the tail was only a shadow.  The light color was usually interpreted as light grey, but it could also be something different.

Both the second prototype TsKB-19 and the third, 19bis, had inward-retracting landing gear and two underwing semi-retractable coolers of unclear geometry. Probably they were Me109-like in retracted position, and were extendable sliding downwards.

The third one, TsKB-19bis,  was similar to the second, but it had a backward sliding canopy with separed windshield and partially removed landing gear doors, and a protruding oil cooler in asymmetrical position under the nose.

It was drawn as overall dark green in Russian magazines, but my guess is that it was painted similarly to the first one TsKB-15, that is red with a darker nose (black, dark red and dark blue are the most likely candidates). A green plane without stars and light undersurfaces doesn't make sense for me.

There is a photo showing two silver planes side by side. This is my old artwork, this is clearly written on my page where I showed it but it was taken as real by many sources. 

There is a book of Maslov in Russian on I-17, I-180 and I-185 published by Eskmo, but it doesn't show much more images than my page, and an article on an old magazine, maybe it could be possible to find it and use an automatic translator to know more. 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Massimo Tessitori

[Graham Boak]

Thanks Massimo, I am entirely to blame for not consulting your pages.  It appear that I now have a first prototype with added underwing radiators.  Sigh.  I thought that I was going to finish it tonight.

 

Does the other AModel kit represent the the TsKB-19 or not?  The artwork does shows differences, but is this reliable?

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Graham, 

I haven't the second kit but I made an idea from a review. It should be better than the first one and represent the third prototype, I don't know if it has the parts for the second one too. Eventually, it should be an easy conversion if one owns an adequate canopy. I suppose that a spare canopy from an I-16 type 5 should be good.

Just, I don't believe too much to an experimental plane all in olive green. 

[DLinevitch]

On 10/12/2020 at 13:45, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi Graham, 

I haven't the second kit but I made an idea from a review. It should be better than the first one and represent the third prototype, I don't know if it has the parts for the second one too. Eventually, it should be an easy conversion if one owns an adequate canopy. I suppose that a spare canopy from an I-16 type 5 should be good.

Just, I don't believe too much to an experimental plane all in olive green. 

Sorry Massimo, but you are wrong. (images are not in the same scale)

 

 

About of the colors, I do not know what mushrooms Maslov smoked, but there were exactly three types of colorings, blue-red on the first prototype, black-gray on the second (possibly red-gray), and black-red on the third (possibly blue-red) ... It's all. 

This is all fake:

Edited January 9, 2021 by DLinevitch

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Psy, 

thank you for the clarification about the canopy. Unfortunately, this makes things more difficult for who wants to make a good reproduction of the plane. 

About the colors:

 the only prototype whose colors are known for sure is the first one, because it is preserved. 

About the second one, exposed in Paris and Milan, we can say that the overall color was light (not metallic), the nose was less light and it had red stars on the wings, whose shade appears much darker than the nose. So we can exclude both red and black for its nose.

 

In consideration of the context, I suspect that it could have been painted with some bright colors. Probably one can find something written in old newspapers, but I don't know where to look for them. 

 

The same prototype was exposed for years at Monino close to the La-7 of Kozhedub, then disappeared (???). It appeared dark overall, probably red or red and blue, or red and black. Maybe someone remembering it is still alive.

 

 

The TsKB-19bis appeared painted in a dark color, at first with a lighter nose, possibly polished metal. 

 

 

At some point it was modified, and the nose repainted with a darker color:

 

 

 

One can guess red and black, or red and blue, or red and dark red (as the Moskva). I don't think green. 

 

I was astonished for the credit given to this fake:

 

 

It's my artwork of 2005; close to it, the text explains this. 

Quote

The image below is manipulated to show hypothetical operative I-17s just before the war, with open cockpit as the I-16s.
I like to imagine them in this manner.

Then I understood that these markings were unlikely before the war.

 

Regards

Massimo

 

 

[DLinevitch]

On 20/01/2021 at 20:11, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi Psy, 

thank you for the clarification about the canopy. Unfortunately, this makes things more difficult for who wants to make a good reproduction of the plane. 

About the colors:

 the only prototype whose colors are known for sure is the first one, because it is preserved. 

About the second one, exposed in Paris and Milan, we can say that the overall color was light (not metallic), the nose was less light and it had red stars on the wings, whose shade appears much darker than the nose. So we can exclude both red and black for its nose.

 

In consideration of the context, I suspect that it could have been painted with some bright colors. Probably one can find something written in old newspapers, but I don't know where to look for them. 

 

The same prototype was exposed for years at Monino close to the La-7 of Kozhedub, then disappeared (???). It appeared dark overall, probably red or red and blue, or red and black. Maybe someone remembering it is still alive.

 

 

The TsKB-19bis appeared painted in a dark color, at first with a lighter nose, possibly polished metal. 

 

 

At some point it was modified, and the nose repainted with a darker color:

 

 

 

One can guess red and black, or red and blue, or red and dark red (as the Moskva). I don't think green. 

 

I was astonished for the credit given to this fake:

 

 

It's my artwork of 2005; close to it, the text explains this. 

Then I understood that these markings were unlikely before the war.

 

Regards

Massimo

 

 

The main color of the I-17bis in Milan is AE-9, that's for sure, but the nose, yes, you're right, something incomprehensible. I even find it difficult to understand, not a single paint is suitable from those that should.

 

I have a set of photos for an I-17bis with a cannon, and it is definitely red. Only in red was painted entirely, and it is painted entirely.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Psy, 

thank you very much for the photo, that is very nice. 

 

For what I read, the plane was presented as a sport plane, even if observers guessed that it was a fighter.  It would be good to look to newspapers of that time, maybe the planes are described. 

For what I know, the I-16 exposed in Milan in 1935 was described as 'apparecchio scuola veloce', fast school plane, and was reportedly beige and red.  

 

I don't put in doubt the use of red on the third prototype, but some photos seem to show a difference in the cowling. Of course, it could also be a different shade of red as on Moskva.

 

Regards

Massimo