M class Destroyer HMS Meteor - Camouflage colours?

[robgizlu]

Hi Team

I'm planning builds ahead and HMS Meteor is in the short to medium term.  She was launched in Nov 1942 and commissioned in Aug 1942.

Here are the respective pictures of her in the scheme I wish to model.  Clearly a Western Approaches variant.

 

 

 

 

I have been unable to realiably date any of these pics.  Commonsense dictates some time between commissioning and 1944 when standardised schemes came into effect with B20/B30 bottom "bars".

The background colour I feel safe is white as is eveidenced by the "likely" pennant number in 507C/G45 grey.

 

Here's a pic of her sister ship HM Milne showing an identical scheme

 

 

which is itself very similar to the Corvette HMS Clematis scheme that is traditionally held to be B55

 

 

I've discussed with Jamie Duff who is concerned that the darker colour is too dark for B55.  (And Western approaches/Peter Scott Blue) and suggested B30.

 

That said a whole host of ships in undoubted Western Approaches schemes display "dark" "Blue" colours.  I've spent some time researching Orthochromatic film peculiarities and the summation of threads on searches here on site is that filters would undoubtedly have been used to prevent Washed out skies and that "Trying to interpret shades of blue from a b/w print is a mug's game".

Here are some examples of vessels that have unequivocally been "Traditonally" held to be in White and Western apparoaches blue ....

 

HMS Campanula

 

 

 

 

 

HMS Bluebell

 

 

 

 

I am broadly satisfied (as is Jamie)that there is just ONE Camouflage colur besides the white on HMS Meteor

The issue rests on what colour the darker shade is :

1) Western Approaches Blue?

2) B55 (darker variant)?

3) B30 or some other ?

 

Thanks in anticipation - for any help in dating the pictures or thoughts as to actual colour

Rob

 

[Our Ned]

Can't help with the colours, but for what it's worth, tentative dates for the Meteor photos:

First two posted may have been taken at the same time - they seem to be typical "as completed" photos.  The second one appears, with an official date stamp, in John English Afridi to Nizam (Kendal: World Ship Society, 2001) - accepting that such date stamps sometimes reflect the date of printing rather than the date of photographing, it says "16.10.42" - but the caption to the photo says "... August 1942 as completed"!

The third photo also appears in the same publication; its caption says October 1942.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

My thinking here was that I could buy into HMS Milne and Bluebell being in standard Western Approaches paints, however I perceive the contrast on HMS Meteor to be higher as is HMS Campanula and Clematis. This to me implies that the darker paint is darker than nominal Western Approaches Light Blue (or B55). I think the beam-on HMS Milne photo is probably a bit of an aberration showing perhaps an excessive contrast, but even the top photograph looks to me to be showing a darker paint than normal.

 

The contrast does not seem dissimilar to that of the nominal landing craft colour combination of white and B30:

 

... hence my general feeling that the paint observed on HMS Milne may be in the circa 20~30% light reflectance value range. I couldn't discount B5 being an option but find that more credible on the hull and less compelling on the superstructure. The pendant number on HMS Milne is an interesting study in itself. CAFO679/42 would have it thus:

 

PENDANT NUMBERS
10. In painting Pendant numbers on camouflaged ships the parts of the figure or letter should be so coloured as to avoid strong contrast with the patch on the camouflage on which they are superimposed; thus:-

 

(a) Parts of figures or letters on colour M.S.1., colour M.S.2, colour 507A, colour B.5, should be painted colour 507C or colour M.S.4.
(b) Parts of figures or letters on colour B.6, colour M.S.3, colour M.S.4, should be painted white.
(c) Parts of figures or letters on colour M.S.4a, colour 507c, light blue, or light green, should be painted colour M.S.3 or a mixture of equal parts colour 507a and colour 507c.

 

Black or red should not be used for painting Pendant numbers over camouflage.

 

The number observed on HMS Milne is clearly darker than white, but is barely lighter than the background paint. Whilst CAFO679/42 can be useful, there are plenty examples where its instructions on pendant number painting was not followed so I wouldn't bet the farm on its scripture being gospel. Infact, I'd lean quite strongly towards that pendant number being painted with the next-tone-lighter than whatever that WA Light Blue substitute is. Personally, based on the contrast with white, I feel we can bracket the pendant number in to being not lighter than 507C (although thinking this through I feel it's perhaps not lighter than MS4) and not darker than MS3.

[Graham Boak]

Meteor is running counter to normal camouflage practice in that the highest colour is darker than the one below it.  Milne is not in identical camouflage because it lacks this feature, except perhaps on the rear turret?  To me, it seems clearly three colours on Meteor and indeed on Campanula., which shares the same odd upper darker colour.  Do these ships have a common builder, as presumably there is a common set of painting instructions used on both.  And on other vessels?

[Modelholic]

On the third pic (Meteor steaming towards). What colour would you say for anti fouling?

Tom

[robgizlu]

I follow all of the above.  However to advance the discussion - I'm struggling to put Castle Clss vessels into the colour frame - obviously much later - 43/44 and once again trafitionally accorded B55, here are a couple of profiles

 

 

 

Graham - one thing I've come to take for granted is that hull colours in relative overhanf often appear darker than superstructures.  To have a different camo colour on hull and superstructure within the Western approaches schema would seem very atypical and I think the difference in contrast is likely shadow/light related.

 

From the CAFO paper CONFIDENTIAL ADMIRALTY FLEET ORDER SEA-GOING CAMOUFLAGE DESIGNS FOR DESTROYERS AND SMALL SHIPS 9th April 1942, Meteor is closest to Plate 20 C.A.F.O 679/42 which in truth it matches almost exactly.

 

I have assumed that this beautifil pic of HMCS Restigouche is original colour and not colourized (i stand to be corrected)

 

 

It's striking how dense the blue colour is though argaubly the photo is slightly under-exposed.  Playing around with B&W in Photoshop (Elements) it's surprising how dark  the blue comes out in B&W hues.  

 

It does beg the question just when B6/B30 was used.  Might it have been used as an alternative to Peter Scott western approaches blue???

Thanks for the input Fellas

Rob

[robgizlu]

5 minutes ago, Modelholic said:

On the third pic (Meteor steaming towards). What colour would you say for anti fouling?

Tom

 

I knew that was going to come up! 

Rob

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

4 minutes ago, robgizlu said:

I have assumed that this beautifil pic of HMCS Restigouche is original colour and not colourized (i stand to be corrected)

 

 

It's striking how dense the blue colour is though argaubly the photo is slightly under-exposed.  Playing around with B&W in Photoshop (Elements) it's surprising how dark  the blue comes out in B&W hues.  

 

It does beg the question just when B6/B30 was used.  Might it have been used as an alternative to Peter Scott western approaches blue???

Thanks for the input Fellas

Rob

 

 

It is an original Kodachrome, however one needs to be very wary of translating Canadian paints to British because it is known that many of their paints were decidedly off-spec. You're correct to pick on on that blue, which is on no days of the week even close to a 55% LRV paint!