Avro 504n use in WW11

[fatalbert]

I have just found out that several Avro 504n's were used as glider tugs and on radar trials upto 1944,i am gobsmacked,i never knew they were still in use that late,would anyone be able to give me anymore details as to markings or even a photo of any of these machines.Many thanks.

Neil

[brewerjerry]

Hi

   amazing

   i just checked bae site for info 

 

 

 

https://www.baesystems.com/en/heritage/avro-504l-to-avro-504r

 

 

 

 

for info 

 

Although retired as a training machine by 1939, seven ex-civilian Avro 504Ns were used during the Second World War as glider tugs. In this role, they supported the development and improvement of Britain’s radar detection system.

 

Their last known use was reported as late as October 1944.

Edited December 6, 2020 by brewerjerry

[Work In Progress]

And what they were used for was to tow the impressed Kirkby Kites which were the least radar-reflective flying things readily available. The 504N was not much use for anything else of a military bent by that stage, and it was better to use them as glider tugs than take Tiger Moths out of other duties. The N's properly controllable radial engine rather than the rotaries of previous 504 variants, combined with a similar 'paper bag' wing loading to the Tiger's, made it highly suitable as a glider tug down at the low speeds you have to work at when towing such pre-war gliders, generally around 55 knots on the tow.

 

I briefly part-owned one of the surviving Kites but never got to fly it, alas, and it moved on into other hands for restoration. It is effectively a souped-up Grunau Baby and really rather lovely. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Truro Model Builder]

The impressed 504Ns were:

 

AX584 ex-G-ACZC

AX871 ex-G-ADBM (originally K1055)

AX874 ex-G-ADBP (originally K2353)

AX875 ex-G-ADET (originally J8533)

BK892 ex-G-ADEV (originally H5199, but now operated by the Shuttleworth Collection as a 504K)

BV208 ex-G-AEMP (originally J9017)

BV209 ex-G-ACPV (originally K1250)

 

Information from British Military Aircraft Serials 1878-1987 (Bruce Robertson, Midland Counties 1987)

Edited December 6, 2020 by Truro Model Builder

[Denford]

Remember that all Civilian aircraft were impressed into the RAF.  Must have been quite an interesting exercise finding uses for some of them.

[Work In Progress]

I think a lot were theoretically on strength but never seriously used for anything. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Work In Progress]

Hmm. Either the Robertson book is missing some aircraft or not all British civilian aircraft were impressed.

For example, 504N G-ADBR, which had originally been K1819, delivered to the RAF in 1930 but surplused into the civil market, recieving its civilian registration on 23 October 1936.  That had already done some tugging at Dunstable pre-war.

It wasn't struck off the register until 1 December 1946, so still existed during WW2 and therefore should presumably appear on Robertson's list of impressed examples. 

[fatalbert]

I think its incredible that they were in use at all.I wonder if they wore contemporary camouflage for example earth and dark green over yellow,or if they retained their civilian markings at all.A fascinating little bit of history.

[Work In Progress]

They were all fairly recently ex RAF anyway having been flogged off in, I believe, 1933 in favour of the Tutors. All the ones I've seen in their civilian lives were in standard alumunium dope with basic signwriting and a bit of embellishment.

I can't prove it but I'm sure that those used as tugs during the war were repainted in a contemporary military scheme. After all, the gliders were.

 

I've also just seen an account that claims they did use a number of Tiger Moths at Haddenham as well as the 504N and various other impressed odds and sods, but it's an account which has other provable inaccuracies so I am treating it with caution for now

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Truro Model Builder]

19 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

Hmm. Either the Robertson book is missing some aircraft or not all British civilian aircraft were impressed.

For example, 504N G-ADBR, which had originally been K1819, delivered to the RAF in 1930 but surplused into the civil market, recieving its civilian registration on 23 October 1936.  That had already done some tugging at Dunstable pre-war.

It wasn't struck off the register until 1 December 1946, so still existed during WW2 and therefore should presumably appear on Robertson's list of impressed examples. 

 

It likely was, but there are lots of pages of listings to get through and so any error is on my part. I have found Mr. Robertson to be a faithful and accurate companion.

[Aeronut]

Have a look at two books (both an be found in pdf form on line).  'On being a Bird' by Phillip Wills and 'The Wooden Sword' by Laurence Wright.  Phillip Wills flew his Minimoa glider behind one of the Avro's for the Worth Matraevers Radar trials, whilst Laurence Wright helped start up the GTS at Hadenham. 

[Work In Progress]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:05 PM, Denford said:

Remember that all Civilian aircraft were impressed into the RAF.  Must have been quite an interesting exercise finding uses for some of them.

 

According to some solid-looking eyewitness testimony I've just run across, impressing all civilian aircraft, while perhaps the intention at one point, did not happen. Lewis Benjamin of the Tiger Club, who was active  at the time, wrote in an anthology of aviation writing published in the late 1990s, and said:

- not only did aircraft remain in civilian hands but were also bought and sold, as borne out by contermorary "for sale" adverts in The Aeroplane and Flight.

- positioning flights and air tests were permitted though officially only on "fuel remaining in tanks", which was, as you might expect, fudged.

 

I've sourced a copy of the book and will quote more when it gets here.

[T-21]

In 1940 a Special Duties Flight was formed at Christchurch and provided 3 Lynx powered Avro 504 aircraft for use as tugs in radar trials at Worth Travers  towing gliders.  G-ACET, G-ACBM and G-ACHP.

 

The trials in June 1940 were to prove if a wooden aircraft structure would show up on radar,which they did. Gliders were kept in trailers near the Worth Travers  radar buildings. The tugs were based at Christchurch  but would tow out of Worth Travers to save a long transit flight from Christchurch . Mungo Buxton and Philip Wills were the glider pilots using Kirby Kites, Minimoa, Viking 1 sailplanes.

 

It is highly likely in view of a war in progress that the aircraft must have been camouflaged in dark earth/green and I presume  yellow undersides although this could be a giveaway to Me109s patrolling the South Coast.   https://cevans.me/VINTAGE/BuildingReviews/KirbyKite/Radar/Radar trials.pdf

 

http://www.purbeckradar.org.uk/purbeck/index.htm

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by T-21

[T-21]

Avro 504N AX875  ex G-ADET  was used by No.1 Glider Training School,, Thame.  1941

[JWM]

Fast googling reveal someone's nice model:

 

Besided RAF one can do a WW2 Avro 504N from Denmark, Belgium, Greece, Estonia, Machukuo...

Regards

J-W

[2996 Victor]

This is absolutely fascinating stuff! I'm intrigued by the thought of First World War biplane finding use in the Second! And better still the likelihood of those used being camouflaged - the model in @JWM's looks rather nice!

Kind regards,

Mark

[JWM]

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

This is absolutely fascinating stuff! I'm intrigued by the thought of First World War biplane finding use in the Second! And better still the likelihood of those used being camouflaged - the model in @JWM's looks rather nice!

Kind regards,

Mark

Exactly! I found this WW1 transit into WW2 fascinating some years ago doing Belgian 504N

Regards

J-W

 

[2996 Victor]

5 minutes ago, JWM said:

Exactly! I found this WW1 transit into WW2 fascinating some years ago doing Belgian 504N

Regards

J-W

 

Hi Jerzy,

I found your Belgian 504 build, but not had a chance to read through it yet! But it looks like a superb build.

I think I'm going to have to build one of these in the near future, even though an RAF version looks like being a bit of supposition which is something I wouldn't normally do!

Kind regards,

Mark

[JWM]

7 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Hi Jerzy,

I found your Belgian 504 build, but not had a chance to read through it yet! But it looks like a superb build.

I think I'm going to have to build one of these in the near future, even though an RAF version looks like being a bit of supposition which is something I wouldn't normally do!

Kind regards,

Mark

Thank you! he Japanese development of Avro 504 was K2Y (rounded wingtips, Gouden engine and redesigned u/c), here is nice set of the photos, article in Russian

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other1/k2y.html

It was still in use in 1941 as said in below first link

http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.com/2012/08/yokosho-k2y2-etajima.html

More photos here:

http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.com/2013/02/

Regards

J-W

 

[T-21]

Don't forget The Vickers Virginias used for parachute testing at RAF Henlow up to at least 1942 and the navigational trainer Vickers Valentias used at the RAF College Cranwell at least till 1941.

[Work In Progress]

3 minutes ago, T-21 said:

Don't forget The Vickers Virginias used for parachute testing at RAF Henlow up to at least 1942 and the navigational trainer Vickers Valentias used at the RAF College Cranwell at least till 1941.

 

True, but neither of those was a WW1 type, even though you can draw a family tree that includes WW1 ancestors it's a bit like calling a Shackleton a Manchester. The 504N has a lot of airframe directly in common with the WW1 504K, and legitimately wears the same type number.

[T-21]

Agree but interesting that 1920s aircraft still in service at the beginning of World War Two.

[ckw]

47 minutes ago, T-21 said:

gree but interesting that 1920s aircraft still in service at the beginning of World War Two.

True but just think how many  aircraft in service today have been around for more than 20 years. Our 'modern' Typhoon first flew over 25 years ago!

 

Cheers

 

Colin

 

 

[Dave Fleming]

Not all civil types were impressed, some continued to be use their civil registrations throughout the war (for civil purposes) and many more were stored during the conflict. There was a rationalisation of the civil register at the end of the war, and many types that had been destroyed, deteriorated in storage or otherwise were no longer fit to fly were removed form the register, so although a type is removed form the register in 1946, it may have stopped flying many years previously.

 

I'm not aware of any photos of the 504Ns, but imagine they would have had yellow undersurfaces as they towed gliders rather than targets (Black/Yellow stripes were for target towing aircraft)

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Dave Fleming

[Bandsaw Steve]

 

20 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

This is absolutely fascinating stuff! I'm intrigued by the thought of First World War biplane finding use in the Second! 

 

It’s even more remarkable than this.

 

The Avro 504 is actually a pre-WW1 type. It’s first flight and entry into service were both in 1913!
 

I think it is the only aircraft type of any nation that was in production before, during and after WW1.
 

Also I know of no other aircraft type that served in both WW1 and WW2 in any capacity. 

I’m no expert though so if anyone has details of another type that meets either of these criteria I would be really interested to hear about it.

In the meantime, I love the old 504. I must do, I spent two years scratchbuilding one! 🤪