sloegin57 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Putting this up for interest/comment. Found on the Web. Photographer not known but all Credit. :- Dennis 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaotic Mike Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Intriguing, particularly the camouflaged one. Does the red outside of the star-and-bar signify something special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted December 3, 2020 Author Share Posted December 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, Chaotic Mike said: Intriguing, particularly the camouflaged one. Does the red outside of the star-and-bar signify something special? It was a short lived marking applicable to all USAAC aircraft from June 29th '43 until August 14th '43 though it was obviously around for a while after the latter. Red outline replaced by an Insignia blue from August 14th '43. Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 I would suggest one of the first Merlin engined aircraft built Stateside. Direct comparison with the Allison. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted December 3, 2020 Author Share Posted December 3, 2020 1 minute ago, bentwaters81tfw said: I would suggest one of the first Merlin engined aircraft built Stateside. Direct comparison with the Allison. Correct. In fact it appears to be - The First, I should have added the caption to post 1 :- "First production North American Aviation P-51B-1-NA Mustang, 43-12093 (NAA serial number 102-24541) P_51b." Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Notice the green brown camo one is for the RAF. FX*** serial just visible. Very likely repainted on arrival in UK with green ocean or some dark grey later 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 @ColFord will be able to fill in the details, I have read them somewhere, but note the P-51B is in RAF TLS colours, Dark Green/Dark Earth/Sky, and retains the RAF fin flash and serial, FX8?? Taken at or near Inglewood California, the North American factory. Note the ice cream van selling over the fence! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJP Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 40 minutes ago, sloegin57 said: It was a short lived marking applicable to all USAAC aircraft from June 29th '43 until August 14th '43 though it was obviously around for a while after the latter. Red outline replaced by an Insignia blue from August 14th '43. Dennis Not just USAAF equipment, the change applied to all arms. Whether or how quickly the change was actually applied to specific machines could vary with local conditions, as did the length of time the variation existed after the official change to blue. As always, photographs are the best guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColFord Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) To quote from the photo caption for this exact photo included in "P51-B MUSTANG: North American's B*****d Stepchild That Saved The Eighth Air Force" by James William Marshall and Lowell Ford, published Osprey, 2020 (and no relation to Lowell but I did have a hand - or two - in it) "P-51B-1-NA 43-12093 is seen on the ramp at Mines Field in the summer of 1943, the aircraft having been fitted with a Curtiss Electric 10ft 6in no-cuff three-bladed propellor from a P-51A. Parked alongside it is brand new Mustang III FX863 painted in RAF Dark Earth and Dark Green camouflage. It also wears a mix of USAAF and RAF insignia. FX863 was one of the first Mustang IIIs shipped to the UK for trials. 43-12093 served as a primary test vehicle for NAA." Some things to note, on the tail of 43-12093 has on it the circular NAA logo applied to most aircraft retained and used by NAA for trials purposes. The three-bladed propellor was fitted for a time for comparative trials between the four-bladed and three-bladed propellor. Was later passed to USAAF and lost in an accident in Florida in October 1943 FX863 is at this point painted in what even at that stage was the 'accepted' finish for Mustangs built by NAA destined for the RAF under Lend-Lease orders. It was an equivalent to Dark Earth and Dark Green disruptive pattern over Sky undersurfaces. Note, how even as on the first Allison engined Mustang Mk.I for the RAF, the propellor spinner is painted in the Dark Earth colour. Mustang IIIs shipped to the UK and destined for the RAF upon arrival in the UK would be sent to a Maintenance Unit/Contractor for re-assembly, stripping of sealants and coverings used in shipping, then the externals of the airframe were stripped back to bare metal and the aircraft was repainted in the RAF Day Fighter Scheme - Ocean Grey and Dark Green disruptive pattern over Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces, with applicable national markings and other distinctive markings at the time. This was a part of the RAF pre-delivery modification process, that would also see the installation of a Malcolm Hood and other required RAF modifications. This is why if you see photos of Mustang IIIs in the MTO in the TLS camouflage and original framed canopy - these were shipped straight to the MTO and assembled there without the same modification process as in the UK. So if you see a Mustang III in the MTO in DFS and a Malcolm Hood, it was originally shipped to the UK. Edited December 3, 2020 by ColFord Typo fix 5 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnAndersen Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 10 hours ago, ColFord said: To quote from the photo caption for this exact photo included in "P51-B MUSTANG: North American's B*****d Stepchild That Saved The Eighth Air Force" by James William Marshall and Lowell Ford, published Osprey, 2020 (and no relation to Lowell but I did have a hand - or two - in it) "P-51B-1-NA 43-12093 is seen on the ramp at Mines Field in the summer of 1943, the aircraft having been fitted with a Curtiss Electric 10ft 6in no-cuff three-bladed propellor from a P-51A. ... I believe I had seen this photo before and dismissed 43-12093 as a P-51A. Perhaps I was too focused on the ice cream vendor and the policeman (?) bearing down on him. It will make a very unusual P-51B, requiring explanation to those who sees what I saw 🙂 Thank you for the story, Colin /Finn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 In particular it was fitted with the 3-blade to test the prop's (the B's 4-blade) effect on stability, which was already noted as something that had suffered with the installation of the Merlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 Can you imagine an Ice Cream van getting within 6 ft of the test and evaluation flight for the F-35 nowadays!! Great photo Dennis, I hope you are keeping well? Duncan B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted December 4, 2020 Author Share Posted December 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Duncan B said: Can you imagine an Ice Cream van getting within 6 ft of the test and evaluation flight for the F-35 nowadays!! Great photo Dennis, I hope you are keeping well? Duncan B Thanks Duncan. Yes - great photo plenty of different shades to mull over. Keeping not too bad thanks. Had a couple of spells at Ninewells since I last saw you and the better half. Fellow BM'ers. This worthy drove all the way from Brechin to my place just to deliver three kits I had ordered from him. Brought Mrs Black Mike as well !!. Excuse was that he was looking for something to eat. Still owe you a mail thanking you for that Duncan. Will write after I have had a few winks of sleep - woken up at 5 this morning with two bloody great claps of thundersnow. Back on topic now Dennis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Duncan B said: Can you imagine an Ice Cream van getting within 6 ft of the test and evaluation flight for the F-35 nowadays!! I may be wrong but I think US citizens' access to unlimited ice cream is a right protected by the Constitution. I remember the RN crews of the US-built escort carriers being amazed to find an ice-cream maker as part of the standard fit-out. Edited December 4, 2020 by Seahawk 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 36 minutes ago, Seahawk said: I may be wrong but I think US citizens' access to unlimited ice cream is a right protected by the Constitution. I remember the RN crews of the US-built escort carriers being amazed to find an ice-cream maker as part of the standard fit-out. I'd never doubt that, but what color is the blue-grey of the car? And do note that the car's white seems rather cream-white when compared to other bright white items in the photo. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 There's a cop coming along from the right, to move him on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 Or to get some ice cream. Unlikely to be the Color Police, at any rate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 Cool photo, the ice cream caught my attention too, love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 In case anyone wants to do a diorama, is it possible to supply chapter and verse on the ice-cream van? Make, model, colour, registration and owner would be nice. PS - suggested font for the signs too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 21 hours ago, Graham Boak said: There's a cop coming along from the right, to move him on. More likely to get an ice cream Duncan B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 Some of the first Mustang Mk.III`s to arrive in the UK for the RAF were handed over to the USAAF,..... such was the need for long range bomber escorts and some retained this Dark Earth/ Dark Green delivery scheme, the camo pattern can be distinguished in b&w photos under the standard USAAF unit markings. Those allocated to 249 Sqn in Italy and maybe others also wore this scheme for a while, before the MU started to apply Ocean Grey. An ex 249 Squadron member when quizzed confirmed that the Mustang`s were definitely not grey and green,..... but brown and green! There was testiment and photos in an old issue of SAM magazine along with a photo of one with a shark mouth. Cheers Tony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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