Mirage IVP colours

[Graham T]

Will be making a start on the 1/48 Heller kit over the Christmas break.  I have the kit, Neomega cockpit & replacement wheels but only the kit decals & colour call-outs!  Can anyone advise regarding good matches for the Grey & Green airframe colours, also the basic cockpit interior colours?  I'm sure I read before that RAF Dark Green & Darks Sea Grey were close enough for the camo - is this correct!

[ivand]

The French use a different colour system, Celomer IIRC. Do a search for previous threads about the French grey/green/aluminium scheme that was used for the Mirage IIIE, 5F, IV, 2000N and D, Jaguar etc.

[secu54]

Hi

 

 The french colors were close to your GB modern dark green and dark sea grey, may be the green a little bit more olive when new. But with time the green turned greyer and the grey lightened a bit.

On an old  MIV this could look like a two tones grey camo.

For a MIVP the interior was medium blue grey, black for a MIVA.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by secu54

[PhantomBigStu]

Trying to get info on the French colours is a task particularly if you don't speak French , they are very tight lipped.  Pick a combo of Dark Green and Grey that looks fine to you vs photos of the real thing. 

[Giorgio N]

On 12/3/2020 at 1:00 AM, ivand said:

The French use a different colour system, Celomer IIRC. Do a search for previous threads about the French grey/green/aluminium scheme that was used for the Mirage IIIE, 5F, IV, 2000N and D, Jaguar etc.

 

Celomer is not a colour system or a standard, it was the name of a paint company that, among the others, made paints for aircraft. So any Celomer number would be a code in that company catalogue.

The current Frenche defence colour specifications are in the document linked below and make reference to a colour system defined by AFNOR, the French standards association

 

https://www.derivery.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/NORMDEF-0001-Couleurs-de-ladéfense-nationale.pdf

 

The Mirage IV colours howevr may or not be in that document, that in any case is not easy to work through

[Graham T]

Thanks for the responses!  A few years back I built a Mirage 2000 & used RAF Dark Green & Dark Sea Grey & I'll probably do do again here as it looked OK to my eyes!

[Big Dave S]

Interesting subject.

Will you post on the in-progress section?

[ivand]

8 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Celomer is not a colour system or a standard, it was the name of a paint company that, among the others, made paints for aircraft. So any Celomer number would be a code in that company catalogue.

So it is, thanks for that! 🙂

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

8 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Celomer is not a colour system or a standard, it was the name of a paint company that, among the others, made paints for aircraft. So any Celomer number would be a code in that company catalogue.

The current Frenche defence colour specifications are in the document linked below and make reference to a colour system defined by AFNOR, the French standards association

 

https://www.derivery.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/NORMDEF-0001-Couleurs-de-ladéfense-nationale.pdf

 

The Mirage IV colours howevr may or not be in that document, that in any case is not easy to work through

 

 

This is how the AFNOR coordinates look when rendered - since not everyone can visualise mentally from CIELAB coordinates

 

 

I've no idea which ones were apparently on the Mirage IV, but the repeated narrative of RAF Dark Sea Grey and Dark Green being close would appear true, if the paints were either A605 or A611 for the grey and A615 for the green. They're certainly closer than US Intermediate Blue is to A620 which my competitors will tell you is perfect for a Mirage 2000

[junglierating]

8 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Celomer is not a colour system or a standard, it was the name of a paint company that, among the others, made paints for aircraft. So any Celomer number would be a code in that company catalogue.

The current Frenche defence colour specifications are in the document linked below and make reference to a colour system defined by AFNOR, the French standards association

 

https://www.derivery.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/NORMDEF-0001-Couleurs-de-ladéfense-nationale.pdf

 

The Mirage IV colours howevr may or not be in that document, that in any case is not easy to work through

Ha ha ha .....given it a quick look with my lapsed but passable (when pushed) French it looks no more difficult than UK MoD tomes (not easy)...section 3.1 looked useful...good find though ...at least Bs381 is colourful...😀

Edited December 4, 2020 by junglierating

[ivand]

I found these RAL equivalents here:

 

gris-bleu1970-...Surfaces supérieures : chasse  et pénétration basse altitude

5024

gris-vert1970-...Surfaces supérieures : chasse  et pénétration basse altitude

6033

[Doc72]

Does anybody know why the wings on camouflaged Mirage IVs always (?) were painted green overall?

I already posed this question in another thread, but so far nobody seems to have an answer:

 

[Des]

28 minutes ago, Doc72 said:

Does anybody know why the wings on camouflaged Mirage IVs always (?) were painted green overall?

I already posed this question in another thread, but so far nobody seems to have an answer:

 

So far I seemed to have answered yesterday.

[WARDOG]

The problem of getting the correct French colors is the bane of my modeling existance!

 

I have a Mirage F.1CT, F.1CR, 2000C, IVP, IIIRS, Rafale M, Super Etendard, Crusader, Puma, Gazelle, Lynx Mk.4 and Super Frelon that are just WAITING for he correct, definitive colors to be built!  Just about EVERY different source of information, from decal sheets to reference sites, has a different color or mix and so far, I'm not too convinced of their accuracy!  For instance, I believe the Mirage 2000D colors are slightly different from the Mirage IVP colors!

 

I'm counting on MRP to come through with these since my French cousins don't seem to have any interest in a paint manufacturing company (a-la Humbrol for British paints).  Ces't La vie!

 

Bon-chance (Good Luck),

 

WARDOG

 

[ivand]

This guy , who worked on the real aircraft, used a mix of Humbrol EDSG lightened with 50% white for the grey and Humbrol 163 darkened with 20% black for the green. He used some Hu27 and 86 to represent repainted patches...

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

At the risk of lecturing people, if anyone wants a paint company to make accurate paints your attentions would be better spent on working out which French standard paints correlate to which aircraft. I have rendered the AFNOR standard above and it's unlikely anyone will ever convince me that there is a higher authority for what AFNOR paints looked like than their own CIELAB coordinates. What remains is whether all Cold War onwards French aircraft used those and if so, which ones, or did they use something else.

 

I don't want to sound dismissive but RAL is a pretty limited as is FS595. As for mixing Humbrol paints, you need not only access to the real thing brand new in good natural daylight PLUS a talent for mixing paint colours. Most who proudly mix their own are not as good as they think they are when their results are objectively measured. Maybe that guy above absolutely smashed it. Maybe not.

 

As with all the work I and others do in paint research, you have to cut through all the chaff and get right back to primary source material. Secondary and tertiary sources can sometimes help, but often sow more confusion than add value.

[ivand]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:20 PM, Graham T said:

I'm sure I read before that RAF Dark Green & Darks Sea Grey were close enough for the camo - is this correct!

I do think we're talking on different levels here. The OP asked a question in the 'does it look good (enough)' register, as I read it. Of course, citing humbrol mixes doesn't pretend to any objective correctness, but it might get the OP closer to actually finishing his build... 🙂

[Doc72]

15 hours ago, Des said:

 

So far I seemed to have answered yesterday.

Well, I just wondered if there is a known reasons why they deviated from the pattern used on the Mirage IIIE, 5F, F.1 and 2000.

Maybe just a matter of taste.

[Des]

5 minutes ago, Doc72 said:

Maybe just a matter of taste.

 

Quite possibly , NATO paints wiggly lines France does not.

 

Or perhaps on a large and very fast moving aircraft as opposed to small and fast jet fighters or large and slow transports/bombers continuing the camouflage pattern across the wings may have actually have highlighted the aircraft rather than hid it.

 

On the other hand as the Mirage IV started to adopt camouflage in the mid-70s when the general trend across Europe was to 'tone down' airfields because of the growing Warsaw Pact low-level threat it might have been just as with the decision made soon afterwards by the RAF to start adopting 'Hemp' for Nimrod, Victor and VC10 the idea was render large aircraft less obvious when on the ground.

[Antti_K]

Hello guys,

 

here is my Mirage IVP built some 20 years ago after a quick wash for the occasion. Painted with Humbrol 27, 163 (RAF Dark Green), Revell 99 and Revell Dayglo Orange. Finished with a coat of Hu 135. The satin top coat has started to turn into yellowish brown. All painted with a paint brush.

 

 

 

 

Lots of scratch built items and most of the decals came from the spares box.

 

As the kit is again available I'm tempted to have a go... for the third time!

 

Cheers,

Antti

[JPuente54]

about 5 to 6 years ago, Hannants Xtracolour offered several paints for the Modern French Air force. Most were for the Mirage fighter series offering the upper and lower greys for the different models. They also offered a couple of greys and green(s) for the Mirage IV bomber and other aircraft. I don't have the paint numbers available;but; one could start writing polite letters to Hannants asking for the paints to be made available again. AKAN is also starting to offer some modern French Air Force colors in their paint line. HTH

Joe

[Des]

Checking through some notes on French aircraft of the period that I have built in the past it looks like on the basis of what I noted as often contradictory sources (although at this distance I have no idea where exactly I found the information to come to that conclusion) I also went with Humbrol 27 Matt Sea Grey but with  Humbrol 116  Matt US Dark Green instead of the RAF Dark Green mentioned.

[WARDOG]

2 hours ago, Des said:

Checking through some notes on French aircraft of the period that I have built in the past it looks like on the basis of what I noted as often contradictory sources (although at this distance I have no idea where exactly I found the information to come to that conclusion) I also went with Humbrol 27 Matt Sea Grey but with  Humbrol 116  Matt US Dark Green instead of the RAF Dark Green mentioned.

Yep Des,

 

I have been eyeing the 116 too for my M F.1CT kit but have s little struggle with the "bluish-Gray" shade.

 

WARDOG

[Filler]

On 12/4/2020 at 11:46 AM, secu54 said:

For a MIVP the interior was medium blue grey, black for a MIVA

Three years late to this topic, but I was wondering if this could be confirmed. I have only found images of ‘grey’ cockpits for MIVs, but it’s not always clear if the photos always and only depict IVPs.

 

I have an IVA cockpit to paint and am stumped as to black or grey.

[Bjorn]

You can find pictures in this thread:

Although they are black/white pictures, it is quite obvious that the cockpit was black all over. Some panels look darker, but if the base colour had been blueish grey, the contrast would have been much starker. And since all other Dassault aircraft from this era had black cockpits, it would have been a little strange if only this one had been in a different colour.