RAF Mustang 1 (AG470) question at the time of the Dieppe raid

[Tail-Dragon]

I'm working on converting the Accurate Miniature Allison engined Mustang 1a to a Mustang 1 (using Ultracast's conv. set).  I'm planning on making AG470 RU*M of 414 Squadron at the time of Dieppe  (flown by F/O Hollis Hills).  

My question is this. Regarding the yellow leading edge markings, I have profiles that indicate the yellow leading edge continued from tip to wingroot (interrupted only by the guns) and also that the yellow ran only on the outboard wing only (tip to the landing light only).

Would anyone know which is correct, half span or full span?

I've found that at the time of Dieppe, no camera was fitted, and the chordwise I.D. stripe must most likely yellow (as opposed to red) but can find nothing definitive on the leading edge.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

Colin

 

[SteveBrooking]

Hi

I would say that the instructions for the leading edge strip were issued for specific types...Spitfire "half way along from the wing tip"... Hurricane "to the landing light" as far as I know there are no specific instructions for the Mustang. As somebody frequently says on here "never trust a profile" and as far as I know there is no photo of AG470/RUM. There are a number of photos of Mustangs that show the strip carried through to the wing root however available photos of 414Sqn aircraft from summer 1942 seem to show the strip  is applied from wing tip to gun ports. The instructions for the type identity bands required that they should be yellow. There are no records in squadron diaries etc that the aircraft involved in Jubilee carried cameras.

Steve

[dogsbody]

Colin, have you seen or have access to the IPMS Canada material? If not, PM me and I can help you.

 

 

 

Chris

[ColFord]

I would echo Steve's comments on the configuration of AG470/RU-M of No.414(RCAF) Squadron at the time of the Jubilee Raid.  Yellow leading edge identification strip from wingtip to outermost gun port, standard - for the time period - yellow chordwise identification bands.  No special squadron or individual aircraft markings (eg Squadron badge or Canadian Maple Leaf RCAF Overseas logo) applied.  No camera carried.

 

I would caution on some of the information contained in the IPMS Canada RT Mustang Addendum in relation to camouflage colours used and aircraft configuration, as some of the older articles are based on old and innaccurate information, not latest research - eg Mustang Mk.I aircraft being in US equivalent paints for Day Fighter Scheme as quoted in older RT articles used in the addendum, plus repeat of old 'oft repeated myths' regarding origins of the Mustang  and configuration of RAF Allison engined Mustangs.

 

 

[Bruce Archer]

Hi!

   I agree with Colin for most of what he said, with these few items.  A lot of Mustang I aircraft were painted with "Mixed" grey instead of Ocean Grey. I did my RU*M ( in the IPMS CANADA "R/T") with mixed grey, as many of 414 Sqn (RCAF) were painted as such. Also many of the early repaints (they were delivered in Dark Earth, Dark Green and a grey camo) had the wing ID stripes/bands from wingtip to wing root (refer to "Camouflage and Markings: RAF Fighter Command Northern Europe 1936 to 1945".

 

    You need to start with an Accurate Mustang Ia, a P-51 or an F-6A kit.  The other Allison Mustangs have differing Radiator  and Carb intakes. Also the early instructions are really bad, so if you can acquire a later set of instructions you will be better off. The Accurate Miniatures Allison Mustangs do need several things to make them more presentable. I will not go into the so-called shape issues ( it looks good to me).

1st: The kit prop needs to go. Check the Ultra Cast conversion set to see which prop they give you. Original sets had the wider chord prop for the A-36 and on Mustang. They do sell a narrower chord prop. An alternative is to use one of the spare props from an Eduard P-39 kit.

2nd: You need the seat armor

3rd: The wheel doors were always in the up position unless they were being worked on

4th: the three marker lights on the underside of the wing are not there on RCAF/RAF Mustangs.

5th: The Tamiya P-51B open canopy will fit he Accurate kit. For open canopies an alternate is a Vacuformed canopy

 

   The Ultra Cast set is easy to use, just remember to measure 4 times and cut once. The RCAF only flew Mustang Is. The RAF flew Mustang I, Ia and II.

  

    The Allison Mustangs were wonderful aircraft, and all I know who flew them said they were the best flying Mustangs.

 

Bruce

[dogsbody]

A little something from Carl Vincent:

 

"  I attach a scan of a photo loaned me four decades or so ago by Frank Hanton, a distinguished 400 Squadron Mustang pilot. On the back of the print was the manuscript notation “Me and Tony” with, underneath it “F/O Frank Hanton and F/O Tony Stephens returning from Dieppe raid August 19, 1942.”

                As far as can be determined from a black and white photo, to my untrained eye the chord-wise stripes appear to be a darker shade than on the leading edge. Red? "

 

     Carl

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Carl.

[JackG]

There is a pdf file of the discussed IPMS Mustang article which can be viewed/download here:

https://www.ipmscanada.com/rt-issues-text/Mustang Addendum (May 2020).pdf

 

Apparently there is no known photo of AG470, so the research is based on other photos from 414 Squadron.

 

---------------------------

 

http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_rafww2  makes mention that yellow leading edge stripes were first ordered August 10th 1942.  Intended for the 'Lend-Lease Mustangs', but then made mandatory for all RAF single engine fighters.  So it stands to reason there might have been some variation on the width when the order first came out?

 

What doesn't follow the timeline, is 414 Tomahawks appear to have leading edge stripes as well,  but they were no longer part of the Squadron's inventory by August '42:

photo examples:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hawk-81A/RCAF-414Sqn-RU.html

 

Diary screenshots:

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

[JackG]

Chris, thank you for bringing up the topic about the chord wise bands.

 

I thought it odd that yellow was chosen, given that the Luftwaffe fighters also used identification yellow, albeit just on the nose and tail surfaces.  In the photo below, can't tell if there is a painted leading edge, but the band obviously is wrapping up and over from underneath.  It also is not the film/filter effect creating a dark band, since the prop tips are light:

 

http://silverhawkauthor.com/canadian-warplanes-3-the-second-world-war-and-postwar-north-american-p51-mustang_684.html

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

Edited November 30, 2020 by JackG

[Tail-Dragon]

13 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Colin, have you seen or have access to the IPMS Canada material? If not, PM me and I can help you.

 

Thanks, I have the original IPMS articles, the addendum, as well as the IPMS decal sheets. They are actually the source of my confusion, as follows ...

 

Bob Migliardi's artwork (pg 4) shows the yellow leading edge outboard only, no rear view mirror, and no IFF 'cheese cutter' antenna. As does Bruce Archers build.

Gary Barling's build, however, shows full span yellow, a round rear view mirror, and the IFF 'chees cutter'.

A. R. Clint drawings (excellent) shows full span yellow L/E, 'cheese cutter' antenna, no mirror, and is the only one that shows the original gun camera lens on the port wing (AG series aircraft only)  Also, The A. R. Clint drawing show the pitot must be relocated slightly.

 

I was just wondering if anything definitive had surfaced, or was this build was going to be another case of "go ahead, prove me wrong!" 

 

Colin

 

[dogsbody]

1 hour ago, JackG said:

Chris, thank you for bringing up the topic about the chord wise bands.

 

I thought it odd that yellow was chosen, given that the Luftwaffe fighters also used identification yellow, albeit just on the nose and tail surfaces.  In the photo below, can't tell if there is a painted leading edge, but the band obviously is wrapping up and over from underneath.  It also is not the film/filter effect creating a dark band, since the prop tips are light:

 

http://silverhawkauthor.com/canadian-warplanes-3-the-second-world-war-and-postwar-north-american-p51-mustang_684.html

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Jack's photo:

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Bruce Archer]

2 hours ago, Tail-Dragon said:

Thanks, I have the original IPMS articles, the addendum, as well as the IPMS decal sheets. They are actually the source of my confusion, as follows ...

 

Bob Migliardi's artwork (pg 4) shows the yellow leading edge outboard only, no rear view mirror, and no IFF 'cheese cutter' antenna. As does Bruce Archers build.

Gary Barling's build, however, shows full span yellow, a round rear view mirror, and the IFF 'chees cutter'.

A. R. Clint drawings (excellent) shows full span yellow L/E, 'cheese cutter' antenna, no mirror, and is the only one that shows the original gun camera lens on the port wing (AG series aircraft only)  Also, The A. R. Clint drawing show the pitot must be relocated slightly.

 

I was just wondering if anything definitive had surfaced, or was this build was going to be another case of "go ahead, prove me wrong!" 

 

Colin

 

Hi Colin!

     The model did at one time have the antennas. The cheese cutter IFF was speculation as I have not found anything say they did or did not have them. But having fat fingers, the antennas were soon broken, and I just did not replace them. The paint and leading edge stripes were based on other 414 Sqn Mustang Is.

 

Bruce

[dogsbody]

More from Carl:

 

" Here are four more 400 Squadron Mustang I photos from that era to add to the conclusion-drawing mix."

 

   Carl

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Carl

[Tail-Dragon]

3 hours ago, dogsbody said:

More from Carl:

 

" Here are four more 400 Squadron Mustang I photos from that era to add to the conclusion-drawing mix."

 

   Carl

 

Ha!  The photo's clearly show the answer is a definitive 'maybe yes, maybe no, maybe sometimes'!  Great photo's, the first one clearly shows the original gun camera lens on the port wing tip, which, as I understand it, was feature of the first series (AG***) aircraft.  They also seem to confirm that 400 squadron used a red chord-wise I.D. stripe.

Many thanks for those.

 

Colin

[Tail-Dragon]

6 hours ago, Bruce Archer said:

Hi Colin!

     The model did at one time have the antennas. The cheese cutter IFF was speculation as I have not found anything say they did or did not have them. But having fat fingers, the antennas were soon broken, and I just did not replace them. The paint and leading edge stripes were based on other 414 Sqn Mustang Is.

 

Bruce

You've probably heard this before, but thanks for the informative article and all the research you shared. Your build was excellent, and for what it's worth, I'll be following your interpretation.

 

Colin

[John M]

Bruce....

No Mustangs from Inglewood were delivered to the RAF in Dark Earth, Dark Green and grey. All Allison and Merlin Mustangs delivered from Inglewood had Sky bottoms (except for the few Mk Ia's that had  Azure Blue bottoms

.

Dogsbody.......

Frank Hanton did not fly on the Dieppe raid.....he doctored his logbook. See 400 Sqn's Forms 540 and 541 also check online for Dieppe participants. I advised Carl V. of this some time ago.

 

John

[ColFord]

Okay everyone, here begin-eth todays lesson.

 

Ducimus "Camouflage & Markings RAF Fighter Command 1936-1945" either as complete work or just the part work with respect to the North American Mustang, as I have posted a number of times before here on Britmodeller is riddled with errors and incorrect assumptions, a result of the original authors working with the available information they had at the time, and in particular, looking at documentation that was available to them at the time relating to later marks/models of the Mustang and applying it retrospectively to the Allison engined Mustangs supplied to the RAF, and at the time they wrote those works, not having access to the original source RAF and Air Ministry documentation because it was still classified and not released for public access.

 

They have did not the advantage of being able to go through original surviving files and other documentation, declassified in recent years or found in the collections of individuals who worked with NAA, NAA suppliers, the RAF, the Air Ministry and numerous email exchanges and interviews with RAF aircrew and ground crew who flew and maintained Allison Mustangs in RAF service, or access to the private collections of as yet largely unpublished photos from many of the aforementioned sources.

 

ALL the Allison Mustangs as delivered by NAA were delivered, as per the contracts, in the originally specified equivalent of the RAF Temperate Scheme.  This was a paint scheme that was in paint colours that were a close match to the MAP official colours, including the underside colour that was a very close match to RAF Sky, with the primary difference due to the composition and manufacturing of the pigments used in the 'brew' used by the paint company used by NAA being a slightly, ever so slightly, greyer version of Sky.  This is confirmed by documentation and colour photographs - in particular look at the Alfred Palmer colour photos and b&w photos of Mustang Mk.IA/P-51 aircraft being assembled and crated at NAA available on the US Library of Congress website, and the photos of Mustang Mk.II/P-51A aircraft being crated on the Boeing Images website.  People are hung up on Dupont Paints and their colours, but NAA used a number of other manufacturers, including one who had been producing paints that met MAP standards pre-War and had agents in the UK and Canada who were feeding them information.  The matches on their 1941 and 1943 paint charts for aviation paints are much closer to MAP than Dupont, including their version of Sky.  This company had been used to supply paints meeting MAP requirements for the production run of Harvard I aircraft for the RAF, and both MAP and the RAF had no issues with the colour matches for the paints used or availability of supply in both Canada and the UK for repairs and repainting.

 

The Mustang Mk.I, initial aircraft issued to a number of RAF Squadrons, those who were first to get them up to mid 1942, mostly received aircraft in the original NAA delivery scheme - equivalent to RAF Temperate scheme.  These had added to them over a short space of time variations to their C&M, some as a result of matching wings to fuselages during reassembly at Speke where the camouflage pattern didn't match, addition of Squadron codes and individual aircraft id letters, repainting of national insignia in a different location - especially the fuselage roundel that was incorrectly painted by NAA too far aft on the fuselage, addition of Sky spinner and fuselage id bands, and in some instances unit badges.  Fairly soon, national markings were amended to comply with the new style at the time roundels and fin flashes with reduced white and yellow segments  (where applicable) and usually combined with proper proportions and positioning of the national markings.  Then shortly after that the decison was made that Mustangs should adopt the same C&M rules as for other fighter types in service with Fighter Command, so a transition to the Day Fighter Scheme took place.  This entailed the repainting of Mustangs in the older Temperate Land Scheme into the new Day Fighter Scheme  that were already with Squadrons, either at Squadron level or when aircraft next went into a MU for servicing.  What this also meant was that new aircraft arriving and being assembled in the UK would be repainted into the Day Fighter Scheme and relevant national markings before being issued to units. (In the case of all the Mustang Mk.IA and Mk.II aircraft this was done before first delivery to an operational RAF unit.)

 

In the initial transition period there was a period where due to the shortages of Ocean Grey paint, 'mixed grey' was used, in some instances the repaint comprised a repaint over the Earth Brown segments of the camouflage with either Ocean Grey or 'mixed grey', and a repaint of the undersides with Medium Sea Grey.  Again as aircraft were rotated back through MUs for major servicing or repairs, they would be stripped and fully repainted in RAF-spec paints Ocean Grey, Dark Green, Medium Sea Grey, Sky spinner and rear fuselage ID band and yellow wing leading edge id strips - again some variability in these depending who painted them on and when.  The yellow wing leading edge id strips I've seen painted on from wing tip to outer most wing gun port, from wing tip to just past the inner most gun port, from wing tip to just short of the wing root and all the way to the wing root.  Again if possible refer to photos of other aircraft serving with the same Squadron at the same time for the best indication in the absence of any photographs of your subject aircraft.

 

The wing chord-wise id bands, were supposed to be 12", yellow.  However, they were pretty universally disliked by the ACC Mustang Squadron aircrew, they made the Mustangs too conspicuous, especially when at low level, negating their camouflage.  As a result, some Squadrons at tried to various times reduce the visibility if the chord-wise bands by painting them narrower, such as 6" or 8", or painting them in red rather than yellow (400 (RCAF) noted for this).  That was why by November 1942 the orders came out to remove the chord-wise id bands.

 

AG serialed Mustang Mk.I a few differences to the later AL, AM and AP serialed Mustangs.  Key visible external difference was the gun camera aperture out in the port wing leading edge.  The AL, AM and AP serialed Mustangs had the gun camera relocated to a position under the nose of the aircraft between the barrels of the nose mounted 0.50HMGs.  You will also need to fill and re-scribe the armament bays on the top of the wing and the case and link ejection ports on the bottom of the wing from those on the Mustang Mk.IA/P-51 kit - Ultracast instructions show configuration and there is also a Mustang Mk.I thread here on Britmodeller that has extract from the E&M manual showing wing configuration for Mk.I thru Mk.II.

 

Another thing to look out for is if the aircraft was still fitted with the original NAA provided tubular 'ejector' exhausts, or one of the RAF developed fishtail flame dampening designs - Ultracast does all three in resin.  Again, you need a photograph of your subject aircraft to determine if original or later style exhausts.  However by around August-September 1942, the fishtail flame dampening designs are starting to be more prevalent.

 

External 'circular' rear view mirrors above front section of canopy - not really seen until early 1944.  RAF Allison Mustangs had internally mounted rear vision mirror(s) mounted inside front section of canopy.

 

IFF antennas - its a 'mixed bag'.  Similar to whether an aircraft had the HF wire antenna between the antenna post behind the cockpit and the tail, or just the VHF pole antenna behind the cockpit.  The configuration evolved over time and also in the same timeframe varied between Squadrons depending on what their primary operational tasking was at the time.  A number of ACC Mustang Squadrons have recorded in their ORBs repeated changes from HF to VHF depending on the type of operations they were flying at a particular time, if they were participating in a large Army exercise, or operating in conjunction with units of Fighter Command or 2 Group.  Around the time of Dieppe, RAF Allison Mustang Mk.I across various Squadrons had the 'cheese-cutter' type with wires from insulators in fuselage (near top leading edge of fuselage roundel) to horizontal tail surfaces outer leading edge.  Others seen/photographed with a short wire - looks almost like coat hanger wire - antenna protruding up and out from insulator in fuselage on one side only, others have a longer wire antenna protruding from an insulator installed on one side of the fuselage up near the cockpit.  For your subject aircraft, 'cheese cutter' is more likely.  Change to the IFF ‘rod’ antenna mounted under the starboard wing, starts to be seen from around March-April 1944 - found more regularly in photos around that timeframe of RAF Allison Mustangs.

 

Dogsbody - your third photo of the Mustang Mk.I overflying 25lb gun crew, is from series of photos taken just before commencement of Exercise SPARTAN in early 1943 and is an aircraft of No.268 Squadron RAF.  Other photos in series shows Mustangs over tanks, over tanks and guns, pilots being briefed, pilots looking at tanks, pilots showing Army personnel Mustangs. (IWM has photos and their captions now include identification of personnel in photos that I provided them.)

 

JackG  - that worldwarsnet information I've had a look at as it relates to RAF Mustangs and again it has serious issues.  He has used as his sources a lot of older works that drew heavily on Ducimus work many years ago.  NO Allison Mustang as built by NAA came from the factory with the yellow wing leading edge id strip applied.  He also perpetuates myth of Allison Mustangs being painted in US equivalents of Day Fighter Scheme paints for later deliveries - Mk.IA and Mk.II - which is directly contradicted by the NAA photo he has on the same page showing them in US equivalents of the Temperate scheme.

 

And, Hollis Hills AG470 was 99.999% NOT fitted with a RAF style spade grip on top of the control column, it was fitted with the NAA supplied US pistol style grip.

 

Colin, if you search within threads here at Britmodeller, there is one on RAF Mustang Mk.I that has a lot of information that will be of assistance to your build.  It's a number of pages and includes extracts from pilots notes, E&M manuals plus quite a few photos.  See here:

 

There are a few other threads that pick up on specifics of RAF Allison Mustangs, both in the WW2 aircraft forum, the P-51 Group Builds and some of the WIP threads.

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by ColFord
Typo

[Tail-Dragon]

Colin Ford - Marvelous information! Thanks very much - once again, my build has swerved towards increased accuracy, and it is much appreciated. Now to find an unmodified control stick, as I had previously modified mine to a spade grip (Duh!)

 

Colin

[Tail-Dragon]

My Mustang 1 is almost complete, thanks to everyone for the help and info, here's a link to the 'work in progress'

 

Mustang Mk 1, 414 Squadron, flown by F/O Hollis Hills at Dieppe - Work in Progress - Aircraft - Britmodeller.com

Edited February 8, 2021 by Tail-Dragon