Sherman M4A2 (corrected) in Russian service

[Zack]

Hello,

I will start a new project and would need a bit of guidance.

There is a bolt strip that sits between the frontal armor plate and cast gear-box housing as shown in the picture bellow.

Should the lip on the cast gear-box housing be sanded off? Might not be very clear in the picture but the bolt strip is sitting about one mm higher then the recess in the cast housing.

 

 

Also this picture looks to be flush were the casting meets the armor  plate:

 

Second question.
I have seen quite a few types of road wheels on pictures of Sherman's. Would the Russian have any specific type or would anything go?

 

The kit comes with an M2 machine gun. Would the Russians have replaced that with a Russian MG such as the DShK?

Looking forward to your input on this!

Zack

 

 

 

[JackG]

Is it certain the Soviets used the M4A1?   While searching for some answers to your questions, came across a popular forum that stated only the M4A2 was lend leased to them.  Other online sources state same thing, with the numbers being near even split between 75mm (2,007)  and 76mm (2,095) guns, and all were diesel engines.

 

Anyhow,  for the bar with all the bolt heads sitting across the front, it appears to have been cast as part of the transmission housing:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/sherman_types/m4a1/m4a1.html

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Zack]

You are right Jack.

The kit is indeed a M4A2 (76).

I am sorry for confusing the subject. 

Unfortunately the pictures won't come up on my computer?

 

But that link is showing the bolt strip being flush with the gearbox housing.
That could obviously have changed with the welded hull though.

 

I have changed the subject line.

Thanks
Zack

[Kingsman]

The bolt strip went through a couple of shape changes.  Early ones did not have the lip, but later ones did after it was discovered that small arms fire and frag could damage the bolt heads.  Any 76mm tank and any tank with the later "sharp" cast nose will certainly have the lipped type.  It is there in the photo above, but the low angle of the photo makes it harder to see.  The lip was part of the nose casting, although kit manufacturers need to mould it separately to get the detail and shape right.  So there should be no visible join between the strip and the nose.

 

That's obviously a Dragon kit.  Have you fitted the strip the right way round? Hard to tell from the photo - it appears not to fit very well either way.........  And it is possible to fit it upside down.  The U-shaped indents around the bolts should have their open ends facing down into the lip.  The top edge of the strip should sit flush with the glacis on welded hulls.  Having had this same experience with Dragon hulls, you may need to file down the ledge on which the strip sits, or even remove it completely, in order to get a better fit.

 

As you can see, Dragon have goofed the way the nose side pieces fit.  There should be a lip at each edge by the sprockets as in the photo above.  Dragon have fitted the nose over the sides rather than between them.  There should also be a line of bolts down the vertical joins between nose sides and hull sides, on the nose side of the join.

 

By the time the "late" hull and 76mm turret came along the open welded spoke wheels and idlers were no longer used.  The most common wheel type used on Shermans of all types were the pressed spoke disc design.  However, the late solid concave smooth disc design was also used and there are pictures of Russian Emchas with both these wheel types.  Idlers could be the pressed spoke or solid disc designs, but the solid ones are unusual and disc wheels are usually seen with spoked idlers.  Sprockets would be the solid type without any spokes.  Tracks could be T48 rubber chevron, T49 steel 3-bar or T74 Steel chevron.  Russian M4s are seen with all 3.  However, Russia and the UK preferred steel tracks whereas the US preferred rubber despite their shorter life, so T48s on Lend-Lease tanks are unusual.  M4A2s had the distinction of being the only Sherman variant intended solely for Lend-Lease, apart from a few with USMC.

 

I haven't seen a Sherman with a DshK, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Shermans were supplied with M2 Brownings for the cupola and of course fitted with 2 M1919 in hull and turret.  The US supplied 0.5BMG and 30-06 machine gun ammunition to Russia along with 37, 75, and 76mm ammunition for tank guns.  12.7mm BMG and DshK ammunition is not interchangeable.  The Sherman pintle socket would have needed some modification to accept the DshK mount.  And DShKs are not really seen in any numbers as cupola weapons on Russian tanks until late 44, and then only on the heavy IS and ISU tanks.  The DT-28 was most common before that.

[Zack]

@Das Abteilung

Thank you very much for taking your time and your thorough reply DA! 

I have continued browsing the Web encouraged by this. 

Allthough this looks to be quite intriguing I have already become fashinated by the subject!

 

Thank you very much! 

Zack

[JackG]

For the Dragon kit, TMD did produce some resin fixes for both the front and back lower hull:

 

https://tigermodeldesigns.com/ols/products/m4a2-rear-armor-with-adjustable-idlers-for-dml

https://tigermodeldesigns.com/ols/products/m4a2-replacement-nose-armor-for-dml

 

regards,

Jack

Edited November 30, 2020 by JackG

[Kingsman]

TMD stuff is nice and usually well researched.  The problem for those of us outside N America is the cost of shipping from the USA and the probable import customs duties.  Very few stores in Europe stock much in the way of TMD products.  Replacement cast noses are available from other manufacturers too.

 

Sadly, the DML Sherman kits are showing their age now and are quite hard work.  I might actually have chosen the Academy kit of this tank, which is probably every bit as good and is less hard work.  Yes, there will be howls about the "wrong welds", but this is either correctable or hardly noticeable.  And I believe the earliest issue had a problem with the hull rear angle, later corrected.  Both kits really need new tracks and metal gun barrels wouldn't go amiss.

 

Zvezda has just released a late-hull 75mm M4A2 suitable for Russian use which is very nice, although again the Academy kit was perfectly adequate and IMO preferable to the Dragon offering.  I thought they might also do the 76mm version as they are quite Russian-centric, unsurprsingly.  But they've gone for an M4A3(76) instead for 2021.

 

The most readily-accessible source of Sherman info is the Sherman Minutia website, here: http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/index.html

[Zack]

_{Hi DA & Jack,
Think I have got it now. Unlike in the Dragon kit this was never a single bolt strip but part of the front gear house casting (I know - you told me so)...
This is from the great site http://the.shadock.free.fr/ posted here for discussion purpose only.}

_{Open U's up. Like the horse shoe for luck.}

_{With very best regards
Zack}

 

_{PS. And stay safe} 
 

[Kingsman]

6 hours ago, Zack said:

_{Open U's up. Like the horse shoe for luck.}

 

Apologies, yes I mis-typed that one. 

 

That's an excellent picture of how it should all fit together.  In order to mould the nose but still get the bolt recesses right, plastic kit manufacturers have to separate the strip because of the limitations of metal moulds.  Although I'm sure that 3-way slide moulding could now be employed.  Resin parts are cast in soft silicone moulds so it can be done in resin.