Luftwaffe runway surface question

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

From Bill Taylor's Royal Air Force Germany since 1945 (p. 61): "...The earlier construction of the airfields at Wildenrath and Geilenkirchen had taught many lessons and Brüggen was one of the first to be built using contracts with major German companies rather than by RAF equipment and manpower resources. Finding a source of water had been one of the first tasks to confront the engineers and the drilling of successful boreholes allowed the airfield go ahead with concrete rather than tarmacadam pavements." (Emphasis mine, KL). Year is 1953 or so.

 

Stay safe and Cheers,

Kari

[Rob de Bie]

I found two photos showing airfield construction taken place at Fliegerhorst Deelen, 1940-1941. Maybe it's a runway, but the trees in the distance make me wonder. The photo descriptions say it's asphalt being laid down, but since there's lots of water around, and no smoke or heating to be seen, I think it's concrete.

 

https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/foto-s/detail/dab2f9df-31c2-8768-9c81-9526713d5a58/media/b89c1329-ab11-7b8c-c308-bee9f17c7374

 

https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/foto-s/detail/beb222ec-24bc-a392-969a-250397d48a08/media/592dd15f-b2b5-15bf-949e-cdc2a803353b

 

The photos don't answer my original question, but since they are probably pretty unique, I decided to add them to this thread. The website is very worthwhile, it has an enormous number of photos of the Dutch military. If you're after Luftwaffe photos, keywords like 'Luftwaffe', 'Fliegerhorst', 'Junkers' etcetera turn up lots of material.

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

One more, kind of generic though:

 

https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/foto-s/detail/9eed1fa3-aae0-1452-1afc-68b9d4b3a4d4/media/baf6b31f-8eaa-46ff-acea-da7839af5dbe

 

Rob

[dov]

Concrete, exactly!

[Bozothenutter]

@Rob de Bie euh, you should be collecting and sorting 935 data!

[Rob de Bie]

.. or Porsche 917 kits, or visible engine kits, or Humbrol tins, or cutaway drawings.. And that's just the web pages that are online! I think I'm sort of a virtual collector 🙂

 

Rob

 

Edit: here are some links to the above:

 

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/911-935.htm

 

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/917kits.htm

 

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/visible-engines.htm

 

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/humbrol.htm

 

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/cutaway.htm

 

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/partspacks.htm

Edited June 1, 2021 by Rob de Bie

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Maybe these can be of some help.

 

1.Article in Leipziger Volkszeitung Ausgabe Muldental 8th of August 2014 on page 27 and 28th of February 2015 on page 31

 

2.Rote Plätze.Russische Militärflugplätze 1945 bis 1994.Stefan Büttner Herausgeber Lutz Freundt.AeroLit Berlin 2007

 

3.Zwischen Leipzig und Mulde Flugplatz Brandis 1935-1945,Stephen Ransom.Stedinger Lemwerder 1996

 

4.Der Flugplatz Waldpolenz nach dem zweiten weltkrieg on page 88-94 and 95-96 in Stadt Brandis,Geschichte einer Sächsischen Kleinstadt.1996

 

Here is a Link to a web page about the Flugplatz Brandis.

https://www.mil-airfields.de/deutschland/flugplatz-brandis.htm

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Rob de Bie]

Thanks Giampiero! Items 2 and 3 I have in my book collection. The newspaper articles (item 1) I found here:

 

https://www.genios.de/presse-archiv/artikel/LVZ/20140808/waldpolenz-ausgleichsmassnahme-abri/9247FE36ACC20E39F34BF6F708F00F83.html

 

https://www.genios.de/presse-archiv/artikel/LVZ/20150228/waldpolenz/C6226DC728DA5FC586698F1263FB99BD.html

 

But they are behind a pay wall, unfortunately.

 

Rob

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

This site has aerial photo of Brandis from July 5th, 1944 if that is of some help still:

https://www.ww2aerialreconstudies.com/jets.html

 

Picked the site from a TOCH discussion. Runway is dark and has ends of light colour.

 

Cheers,

Kari

[Rob de Bie]

Kari, many thanks for this very interesting link! I had no idea that the Luftwaffe was so busy extending so many runways in this stage of the war. I will study it closely.

 

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

 

Today I went to the university library to see whether I could find period books with answers to my Brandis runway questions. I loaned the following:

• Asphalt und asphaltmaschinen im strassenbau - Georg Klose - 1927
• Die natuerlichen und kuenstlichen Asphalte: ihre Gewinnung, Verwendung, Zusammensetzung und Untersuchung - J Marcusson, H Burchartz, P Wilke - 1931
• Neue wege fuer den aufbau und asphalt- und teerdecken - R Wilhelmi - 1933
• Arbeitsgemeinschaft der bitumen-industrie. bitumen und asphalt: taschenbuch - C Zerbe - 1958
• Strassenplanung und bituminose bauverfahren im in- und ausland - Forschungsgesellschaft fu¨r das Strassenwesen, Arbeitsgruppe Asphalt- und Teerstrassen - 1959
• Soils, concrete and bituminous materials: a record of a course dealing with airfield construction given at the Road Research Laboratory Department of Scientific and Industrial Research - 1943

Unfortunately, I found extremely little useful information. Therefore I will close this research topic for myself.

 

Thanks to all that responded to this thread!

 

Rob

Edited August 23, 2021 by Rob de Bie

[Black Knight]

I dunno if this adds anything to the mix

In the first 1/3 of 1970s I was in RAF Photo Interpretation

We were keeping an eye on the doings of Soviets and Warsaw Pact countries.

Amongst the many things we were instructed on was the reflectivity of runways. Concrete always shows up bright. 

It was believed that the Germans used powdered rubber, ersatz rubber, mixed into the top finish of runways, which reduced their reflectivity but also gave good grip. However this top surface was worn away speedily leaving a brighter central strip with darker hard to see borders

[Rob de Bie]

I have a tiny update on this subject.

 

I went to the university library again, and browsed through three books about the prewar Autobahn construction program:

• Zwei Jahre Arbeit an der Reichsautobahn
• Die Reichsautobahn Im Wald
• Reichsautobahn, Mensch Und Werk

In one of three books, all sections of the planned network were discussed, using maps. In one I spotted 'Bitumendecke', besides 'Betondecke' and 'Pflasterdecke', as the road surface. It was a tiny section of Autobahn, and in subsequent pages I did not see 'Bitumendecke' again. Two conclusions: 'Bitumendecke' is the German description for asfalt road pavement, and asfalt roads (and therefore runways ??) were the exception in Germany in that time.

 

And now that I write that down, I realise that around 1990, most German highways were concrete too, which was quite a surprise for me, coming from the Netherlands where all highways were asfalt. I've driven over highways in Germany in more modern times too, but never again paid attention to the pavement. German readers can probably comment on that.

 

Rob

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Betondecke means concrete pavement and Pflasterdecke cobblestone pavement but as Bitumen is used as binder for asphalt it is probably the word for asphalt used at the time.Many Autobahnen here in Germany are covered with concrete plates even today.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited May 25, 2023 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Jochen Barett]

17 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

+++

And now that I write that down, I realise that around 1990, most German highways were concrete too, which was quite a surprise for me, coming from the Netherlands where all highways were asfalt. I've driven over highways in Germany in more modern times too, but never again paid attention to the pavement. German readers can probably comment on that.

 

Rob

 

We all have it at the tip of our finger: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3288649,9.871318,145597m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu

 

 

Zoom in and follow the A7 from Flensburg to Hannover and you will probably see "everything" (except cobblestone).

- "Regular" asphalt ("Schwarzdecke" from tar (produced from coal) binding minerals in the olden days to bitumen (prduced from mineral oils))

- "Flüsterasphalt" (whispering asphalt)

- Concrete plates

- Concrete cast in place

- Patches

 

As you may expect from a country like Germany there is a constant struggle between perfection (durability, good traction wet and dry, and noise reduction), cost (local resources (sand is not just sand)), standardization, and personal profits.

 

The pandemic is over, grab hammer and shovel and discover the old runways!

[tempestfan]

On 6/1/2021 at 12:14 AM, Rob de Bie said:

One more, kind of generic though:

 

https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/foto-s/detail/9eed1fa3-aae0-1452-1afc-68b9d4b3a4d4/media/baf6b31f-8eaa-46ff-acea-da7839af5dbe

 

Rob

 

I wonder what the large number of barrels is for. I see no real use for them in a concrete construction. 

 

17 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

 

In one of three books, all sections of the planned network were discussed, using maps. In one I spotted 'Bitumendecke', besides 'Betondecke' and 'Pflasterdecke', as the road surface. It was a tiny section of Autobahn, and in subsequent pages I did not see 'Bitumendecke' again. Two conclusions: 'Bitumendecke' is the German description for asfalt road pavement, and asfalt roads (and therefore runways ??) were the exception in Germany in that time.

 

And now that I write that down, I realise that around 1990, most German highways were concrete too, which was quite a surprise for me, coming from the Netherlands where all highways were asfalt. I've driven over highways in Germany in more modern times too, but never again paid attention to the pavement. German readers can probably comment on that.

 

Rob

The use of concrete for (most of) the initial Autobahnen may well have something to do with availability of the raw materials, both in general and geographically. Carbon-based materials would be available around petro(chemical) plants I guess, or have tor be transported from such locations. Sand as the main ingredient of concrete is around just about everywhere, and cement processing probably more prolific than oil/coal processing. But then this would probably apply to the same extent to airport runways; OTOH, Brandis is close to the Chemiedreieck (i.e. Leuna refinery), so using otherwise-unusable byproducts for runways may have been a convenient way to dispose of them.

 

I'm not so sure about this - I remember the section through the Lüneburger Heide which was made of concrete I think, and a notorious backbreaker because of the seams between the concrete slabs. This was replaced for Expo 2000. Apart from that, my recollection is predominantly asphalt - which is also used for something like 98% of the non-Autobahn network that I am aware of. But then the asphalt on Autobahnen may well only concern the "Deckschicht"/"Verschleißschicht" (top layer) .

[Black Knight]

2 hours ago, tempestfan said:

 

I wonder what the large number of barrels is for. I see no real use for them in a concrete construction. 

 

Fuel, oil and lubricants for machines using internal combustion engines ?

[Jochen Barett]

7 hours ago, tempestfan said:

 

I wonder what the large number of barrels is for. I see no real use for them in a concrete construction. 

+++

Maybe tar or bitumen as a binder to make asphalt together with the "sand" (gravel).

 

The concrete plates of the Lüneburger Heide A7 cost me one of the studs holding the exhaust manifold not to mention one or the other [intervertebral] disc.

 

Hearsay: Post war they used baltic sea shores sand in Eastern Germany to cast concrete railway sleepers, just to find out the single grains are too round to produce good concrete.

A few years later (post 1989) they repeated an experiment with some sand in the concrete on the A24 (Hamburg-Berlin) , to repeat the experience that it does not give useable concrete (allegedly in a different, a chemical way https://www.abendblatt.de/region/article107549315/Betonkrebs-macht-Autobahnen-zu-schaffen.html ).

[Rob de Bie]

5 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

Maybe tar or bitumen as a binder to make asphalt together with the "sand" (gravel).

 

The concrete plates of the Lüneburger Heide A7 cost me one of the studs holding the exhaust manifold not to mention one or the other [intervertebral] disc.

 

Now that I think of it: DDR highways were also concrete slabs. Usually the 'steps' in the right lane were worse than on the left lane, so it was more comfortable to drive in the left lane - against traffic laws.

 

The exits were sometimes cobblestones, and very short. That lead to some excitement, especially in the rain.. But they disappeared really quickly as far as I can remember, probably too mant accidents with 'Wessies'.

 

We got to know the routes between Russian (Soviet) air bases pretty well. There was this famous dip between Finow and Templin airbases, and here's a rental Mondeo taking off. A speed of about 120 km/h was needed for this jump.

 

 

Rob

Edited May 26, 2023 by Rob de Bie

[GiampieroSilvestri]

13 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

 

Now that I think of it: DDR highways were also concrete slabs. Usually the 'steps' in the right lane were worse than on the left lane, so it was more comfortable to drive in the left lane - againt traffic laws.

 

The exits were sometimes cobblestones, and very short. That lead to some excitement, especially in the rain.. But they disappeared really quickly as far as I can remember, probably too mant accidents with 'Wessies'.

 

We got to know the routes between Russian (Soviet) air bases pretty well. There was this famous dent between Finow and Templin airbases, and here's a rental Mondeo taking off. A speed of about 120 km/h was needed for this jump.

 

 

Rob

I can assure you that today the roads here in Germany are much worse that in the 90s and it does not matter where in the country you are and do not let me begin to talk about bridges:

At last official count there are 40000(!) ailing road bridges of which many(!!!!) are in such a bad shape that according to traffic experts they should be demolished instantly.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited May 27, 2023 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Rob de Bie]

15 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

I can assure you that today the roads here in Germany are much worse that in the 90s and it does not matter if you are in the North,East,South or West and do not let me begin to talk about bridges:

At last official count there are 40000(!) ailing road bridges of which many(!!!!) are in such a bad shape that according to traffic experts they should be demolished instantly.

 

I believe you! In 2019 I drove from the Netherlands to Austria and back, and it wasn't a great experience. In the past German highways were near-perfect, but no longer. I would dare to say that Dutch highways are better. They are repaved every few years. Road works are done with traffic is low, during the night or weekend. 'Open asphalt' (we call it ZOAB) nearly everywhere, so driving in the rain is no problem. Last weekend I drove in Belgium in heavy rain, and couldn't see the striping anymore, plus a heavy glare - scary.. Dutch highways were like that 25-30 years ago - come on Belgium! We've come a long way, but we're also paying a pretty penny for it.

 

Rob

[Jochen Barett]

Just come over and make good use of the last opportunity to put the pedal to the metal before they impose a speed limit all over the place!

 

Any country needs some kind of "freedom", guns, sex, drugs, being lazy, protesting, you name it. If you have to work hard day after day, have next to no chance to own a legal nice gun collection, have to visit the Netherlands to legally smoke pot, you have at least no speed limit on the Autobahn in some places and with a little luck no traffic jam so you can actually exploit it.

 

The raod to Brandis is yours! Despite the patchniness it can be quite nice

 

 

 

And yes, he should have kept to the right lane when possible, just to make sure, he can be easily passed by other cars and because it is the law.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Jochen Barett

[Rob de Bie]

3 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

Just come over and make good use of the last opportunity to put the pedal to the metal before they impose a speed limit all over the place!

 

Any country needs some kind of "freedom", guns, sex, drugs, being lazy, protesting, you name it. If you have to work hard day after day, have next to no chance to own a legal nice gun collection, have to visit the Netherlands to legally smoke pot, you have at least no speed limit on the Autobahn in some places and with a little luck no traffic jam so you can actually exploit it.

 

Happy to meet another freedom fighter 🙂 In our increasingly technocratic societies, our freedom is definitely at risk. Some years ago I read a short story, telling of a day in the life of an average citizen, counting through how many hoops he/she had to jump. The hoops were imposed by the government, as you will understand. And the count was amazing - it was a sad short story..

 

Rob

[Hook]

15 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

In 2019 I drove from the Netherlands to Austria and back, and it wasn't a great experience.

Since my girlfriend is Austrian, I have done this for about a decade and fully agree with your assesment.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[GiampieroSilvestri]

On 26/05/2023 at 23:55, Rob de Bie said:

 

I believe you! In 2019 I drove from the Netherlands to Austria and back, and it wasn't a great experience. In the past German highways were near-perfect, but no longer. I would dare to say that Dutch highways are better. They are repaved every few years. Road works are done with traffic is low, during the night or weekend. 'Open asphalt' (we call it ZOAB) nearly everywhere, so driving in the rain is no problem. Last weekend I drove in Belgium in heavy rain, and couldn't see the striping anymore, plus a heavy glare - scary.. Dutch highways were like that 25-30 years ago - come on Belgium! We've come a long way, but we're also paying a pretty penny for it.

 

Rob

Here in Germany when a construction company has the contract for roadworks it is instantly installed with warning beacons.In doing so the company gets money from the state or region without having moved a finger.When they work on the road with small exceptions it is only during daylight and on weekdays.I saw a Television report that some "roadworks" have been installed more than five years ago and nothing happened.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero