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Luftwaffe runway surface question


Rob de Bie

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I found two videos from roughly the same time period:

 

Youtube: Nowra Aerodrome Construction (1945)

 

This one mentions gravel, followed by 'light tar  as a primer', 'followed by an application of bitumen', 'covered by stone, previosly crushed to a small gauge'. The components sound like asphalt to me, except that the mixing of the ingredients is done very different compared to current asphalt.

 

Youtube: Reclaiming Bitumen Highways (1947)

 

Here the mixing of the gravel and bitumen is done in a creative way: on the road itself by alternating applications of bitumen and then mixing. I noted the sentence: 'The traffic completes the job and thoroughly compacts the mix' . Creative 🙂

 

Rob

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Quick thought! Looking at the aerial view and the variety of shades in the surrounding area around the airfield, is it possible we are looking at issues with how film variations show colours? Some people think they can tell camouflage colours of aircraft from black and white photos, but it is extremely difficult. On some period photos of British aircraft the yellow outer ring of a roundel can appear black depending on the film being used at the time. Could it be the contrast of the runway is not a great as it appears here? 

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58 minutes ago, Flintstone said:

Quick thought! Looking at the aerial view and the variety of shades in the surrounding area around the airfield, is it possible we are looking at issues with how film variations show colours? Some people think they can tell camouflage colours of aircraft from black and white photos, but it is extremely difficult. On some period photos of British aircraft the yellow outer ring of a roundel can appear black depending on the film being used at the time. Could it be the contrast of the runway is not a great as it appears here? 

 

Ah, one of my favorite subjects! Yes, orthochromatic black & white film represents red and orange as black, and makes blue appears lighter. Blue-eyed people have nearly white eyes in ortho photographs. Anecdote: since this film is not sensitive to red light, it can be processed in a red-lighted 'dark room', as you will still see in movies! Panchromatic black & white film represents all colors with a realistic gray value. Unless colour filters are used of course.

 

Colour interpretation from black & white photos is indeed very difficult, and personally I doubt 95% of what I read when various RLM aircraft colours are 'identified'. However, if you have multiple photos of the same subject, shot with both orthochromatic  and panchromatic film, you can see what parts were red / orange or blue, since their grey value will be vastly different. I used that method to establish the colours of the markings of the Postjager, documented here: https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/postjagercolors.htm

 

Now back to the Brandis runway. It could be that ortho film was used for both the Komet films and the aerial photo, But for the runway to appear 'black', it must have been either red/orange or black. In that case I guess it was black, also because the texture suggest a tarmacadam or asphalt runway.

 

Rob

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Another video, where you can see taxying Ar 234 over 'black' and concrete parts, possibly at Alt-Lonnewitz. One Arado seems to kick up some dust with the main wheels, that is blown away by the jet exhaust, and even leaves a trail. What kind of surface would that be??

 

Youtube: Arado Ar 234 Blitz (1944)

 

Rob

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Still thinking that the runway is no darker than the surrounding fields on the aerial shot and German coal is brown, so how about coal dust to blend the runway into the surrounding countryside? A black runway would advertise its presence similar to a come bomb me sign!

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On 11/27/2020 at 9:06 PM, Flintstone said:

Rob,

I always thought the Komets started on the concrete to jump the chocks and then actually took off from the grass? Dropping the wheels would have risked a lot of damage if it was a hard surface. The grass area must have been quite good in terms of bumps and levels as the Komets definitely used it for landing.

 

I found a movie where you can see the MLG axle being dropped on (in my view) a hard runway, not grass. It bounces impressively, but you don't see earth or grass being thrown up, it's all very clean.

 

USAAC Me 163 Briefing FIlm

 

Rob

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Hallo

I found a pdf file in the www, about Austrian Airfields of WW2.

Interestingly about an airfield (Wien-Aspern) is written: Reinforced concrete runways with surfaces of tar and beech wood shavings…

Here you may think about this. The airfield mentioned was a DLH airfield with permanent traffic.

(Deutsch-Wagram) A concrete runway eventually put down for the use of Me 262 jets that were to be used in the defense of Vienna….

Concrete runways or grass was standard all over Austria. Huge, large hangars were standard, many of the survived the war, like in Klagenfurt.

To explain: The airfields of Klagenfurt and Graz and many others like Zeltweg were operationally used by the RAF from 1945 to 1955. Spitfire Mk. IX were stationed in Carinthia and Styria.

Me, I am from the area near Klagenfurt and know many airfields close by. In my childhood, late 1950s, we were there by foot and bicycle. I remember quite well.

 

https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Klagenfurt_Airport&params=46_38_34_N_014_20_14_E_type:airport_region:AT&title=Klagenfurt+Airport

 

An airport near Klagenfurt became important during the last days of war:

 

46° 41' 18.0168″N 14° 19' 51.06″E coordinates are edited for use on GE or GM

 

Are the coordinates of the center (middle) a runway, which is parallel to the river Glan. Was called Möderndorf. This particular airfield was the airfield for operation Bienenstock by Hajo Hermann leadership. Targets were the bases at Foggia for the RAF and USAF. And other airfields in Italy.

After the RAF use of this airfield, the steel matting system from the RAF was still there. Some years later all was taken away by local scrap traders.

So, all your thinking of, lead to some interesting facts. I knew a little about it, now I can give you a better picture.

Happy modelling

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5 hours ago, dov said:

Get a read on this file from AUSTRIA in WW2:

 

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields - Austria [1937 Borders].pdf

 

<Document is Copyright © by Henry L. deZeng IV (Work in Progress).>

 

Thanks for the interesting link! I searched the document for 'asphalt' and 'tarmadam' but found none. Maybe it has to do with the local supply of materials. Lacking a large chemical industry, bitumen or tar would be difficult to get by in Austria, whereas concrete was much easier to produce locally.

 

BTW, if you know the author, could you ask him to include a map? I would love to know whether there were airfields in the areas I spent two holidays (Schwaz and Annaberg im Lammertal).

 

Rob

 

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Here I can help immediately:

 

http://www.geheimprojekte.at/luft_flugplaetze.html

 

This you can chek right now. The local knowledge I can not give you. This you can absorb if you live at the location of the airfield or nearby.

As I do and did. In short terms, I can give you an overview off airfields in Austria. I will try to give you an overview.

Strike airfields we had non in Austria.

  • Suport for militarx ops at the Balkan and in late years in northern Italy
  • Air Defense when bomber attacks started in 1943
  • Flying schools
  • Comuter airfields

Well, you may hear soon.

 

Happy modelling

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No strike airfields?  Then why did Austria buy He.70s and Ju.86s?  Just add "postwar".

 

It is more than likely that the u/c units dropped of the Me.163 will have initially landed on the hard runway the aircraft was using, and then veered off to end up on grass.  Or just bounced off the end of the runway.  Where they ended up is no guide to what the aircraft was operating from.

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On 11/30/2020 at 7:17 PM, Rob de Bie said:

I found two videos from roughly the same time period:

 

Youtube: Nowra Aerodrome Construction (1945)

 

This one mentions gravel, followed by 'light tar  as a primer', 'followed by an application of bitumen', 'covered by stone, previosly crushed to a small gauge'. The components sound like asphalt to me, except that the mixing of the ingredients is done very different compared to current asphalt.

 

Rob,

 

I live only a couple of kilometers away from the airfield that was known as "Feldluftpark 1" during WWII (Finland). Coincidentally I also work at that very same airport.

 

Your findings about the video clip match with my findings with the real surfaces. The bitumen surfaces here look very thick and "soft" and they also feel "soft". The material is currently very dark gray; like RAL Schwartzgrau (RLM 66). It is not painted however. Small, light coloured crushed stones are visible on the surface.

 

All German laid concrete surfaces are clearly lighter than current concrete works in the area. It seems that chalk dust comes easily off from the WWII era concrete surfaces. They are flattened with planks covered with sheep skins giving a rough and "striped" surface.

 

Here is one of the two surviving Compass Bases built by the Luftwaffe; currently used by the police for various bomb and explosives exercises:

 

spacer.png

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

 

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Hello!

 

For what it is worth. In Bill Taylor's "RAF in Germany" p. 55 has aerial photo of Alhorn airfield which has runways with almost black center section and very light runway ends. Checked Google Maps and seems runway 09-27 is still like that. Looks like concrete in the ends and lengthwise stripes of asphalt(?) in the middle. Not that far from Netherlands.

 

Cheers,

Kari

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11 hours ago, dov said:

Here I can help immediately:

 

http://www.geheimprojekte.at/luft_flugplaetze.html

 

This you can chek right now.

 

Thanks for the help, but I still need to enter each airfield in Google Earth or Google Maps to see whether they are near to my holiday locations. Except for the main cities I have no idea where most of them are. That's why I wished for a simple map. But it also sounds ungrateful, sorry 🙂

 

Rob

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21 hours ago, Antti_K said:

 

Rob,

 

I live only a couple of kilometers away from the airfield that was known as "Feldluftpark 1" during WWII (Finland). Coincidentally I also work at that very same airport.

 

Your findings about the video clip match with my findings with the real surfaces. The bitumen surfaces here look very thick and "soft" and they also feel "soft". The material is currently very dark gray; like RAL Schwartzgrau (RLM 66). It is not painted however. Small, light coloured crushed stones are visible on the surface.

 

All German laid concrete surfaces are clearly lighter than current concrete works in the area. It seems that chalk dust comes easily off from the WWII era concrete surfaces. They are flattened with planks covered with sheep skins giving a rough and "striped" surface.

 

Here is one of the two surviving Compass Bases built by the Luftwaffe; currently used by the police for various bomb and explosives exercises:

 

Antti, thanks for your account! I found the compass base on Google Earth, nice.

 

The 'softness' that you describe is what I sort of expected, and still makes me think that just maybe that material is closer to tarmacadam (tar + sand mix) instead of asphalt (bitumen + stones / gravel). However, if it's very thick, then it sounds like asphalt again. My head hurts..

 

BTW, your account of the softness made me think of an air show at Damgarten in 1992, while the Soviet/Russian MiG-29 regiment was still in Germany. I was amazed at the material they used to fill the gaps between the concrete slabs. It was soft and sticky, my shoe stuck to it. I had never seen (felt) anything like that at the many NATO air bases I had been to.

 

Rob

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8 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said:

Hello!

 

For what it is worth. In Bill Taylor's "RAF in Germany" p. 55 has aerial photo of Alhorn airfield which has runways with almost black center section and very light runway ends. Checked Google Maps and seems runway 09-27 is still like that. Looks like concrete in the ends and lengthwise stripes of asphalt(?) in the middle. Not that far from Netherlands.

 

Thanks Kari! I think many runways are constructed like that: concrete ends where aircraft are stationary part of the time, and cheaper asphalt in the middle. But I don't think the Alhorn runway is the same as in the war, they never last that long I think.

 

Rob

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20 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said:

 

Thanks for the help, but I still need to enter each airfield in Google Earth or Google Maps to see whether they are near to my holiday locations. Except for the main cities I have no idea where most of them are. That's why I wished for a simple map. But it also sounds ungrateful, sorry 🙂

 

Rob

Try this http://www.geheimprojekte.at/luftkrieg.html

"Oranges Quadrat: Fliegerhorst der Luftwaffe" (unfortunately without names, but maybe you can lay it over a map).

 

When it comes to "Asphalt" and "Teer vs. Bitumen" we are facing a certain "softness" in use in Germany by laymen ("Teer" being used synonymously for two definitely different substances) and added trouble through translation English/German (and back and forth). A runway or road could well be called "geteert" (tared) though Bitumen was used.

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Just something i stumbled across in a bookstore when visiting Berlin back in 2013. Looks like some very interesting books but of course in german text.

 

https://shop.falter.at/liste.php?namen=Jürgen+Zapf&seite=1

 

Irony is my main goal was to get to Leipzig to attend a "messe" i had no idea about the location of the Brandis airfield before now.

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13 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

Try this http://www.geheimprojekte.at/luftkrieg.html

"Oranges Quadrat: Fliegerhorst der Luftwaffe" (unfortunately without names, but maybe you can lay it over a map).

 

When it comes to "Asphalt" and "Teer vs. Bitumen" we are facing a certain "softness" in use in Germany by laymen ("Teer" being used synonymously for two definitely different substances) and added trouble through translation English/German (and back and forth). A runway or road could well be called "geteert" (tared) though Bitumen was used.

 

Thanks for the map! Now I know there were no former Luftwaffe airfields in the areas I went on holiday. But Schwaz currently has a tiny helicopter airfield, operated by the Österreichische Luftstreitkräfte. That explains the Alouettes that I heard from time to time.

 

The problem of inaccurate terminology is widespread, and makes research that much more difficult, or nearly impossible. But I contribute to it too: 'asphalt' should be called 'ashalt-concrete' but I hardly dare use that because the subject revolves around the difference between concrete runways or parts of runways, and asphalt runways or parts of runways 🙂

 

Rob

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, top turret toddler said:

---

Irony is my main goal was to get to Leipzig to attend a "messe" i had no idea about the location of the Brandis airfield before now.

Again, a "Messe" is a fantastic example! (click on the "English" version in each of the following)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heilige_Messe in church (and many laymen will not know if a Messe may be held in a lutheran church like the Frauenkirche (well worth a visit too!))

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messe_(Wirtschaft) a trade fair

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messe_(Musik) in music (maybe held in the Frauenkirche)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messe_(Schifffahrt) the "dining room" (for the crew, not for cruise passengers) aboard a ship

 

So, maybe the Russians just put new layer(s) on top of the old Brandis raunway and one may still be able to find the original layer or remains of it. But since the Russians would have put down their layers before 1990 (and were a bit careless when it came to environmental protection in Eastern Germany and health issues) I'd assume they will have used "Teer" and not "Bitumen".

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3 hours ago, top turret toddler said:

Just something i stumbled across in a bookstore when visiting Berlin back in 2013. Looks like some very interesting books but of course in german text.

 

https://shop.falter.at/liste.php?namen=Jürgen+Zapf&seite=1

 

Irony is my main goal was to get to Leipzig to attend a "messe" i had no idea about the location of the Brandis airfield before now.

 

It must be my lucky day! I searched a bit for these books, and found this page with sample pages:

 

https://www.flugplaetze-der-luftwaffe.de/?page_id=439

 

I clicked the one for 'Sachsen' more or less by accident, and what does it show: 4 out of 5 pages of the text for Brandis!! On the last page there's a super aerial photo of the east runway end, with six Komet I think, ready for take-off, wow!! I think the text on the runway is on the missing page (19), there are a few last lines on page 20.

 

Rob

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Quote

Hello!

 

For what it is worth. In Bill Taylor's "RAF in Germany" p. 55 has aerial photo of Alhorn airfield which has runways with almost black center section and very light runway ends. Checked Google Maps and seems runway 09-27 is still like that. Looks like concrete in the ends and lengthwise stripes of asphalt(?) in the middle. Not that far from Netherlands.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Well, I supose this myth has a logic answer.

Why?

Think of a runway after an air raid. Full of bomb craters. The heart of the airport. The middle of the runway. What do you do after the attack? Eliminate duds, remove splinters and fill craters. Then compact the filler material. And how does such a runway get operational quickly? With one pour of asphalt over all damaged areas. End of the story that explains itself quite simply without fairy tales.

Good luck

Happy modelling

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2 hours ago, dov said:

Well, I supose this myth has a logic answer.

Why?

Think of a runway after an air raid. Full of bomb craters. The heart of the airport. The middle of the runway. What do you do after the attack? Eliminate duds, remove splinters and fill craters. Then compact the filler material. And how does such a runway get operational quickly? With one pour of asphalt over all damaged areas. End of the story that explains itself quite simply without fairy tales.

 

 

I don't like your 'end of the story' declaration, plus declaring other people's explanations as 'fairy tales' 🤨

 

Rob

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Well, take it easy!

Please don't be so sensitive. Never meant badly. But only related to wrong ways of thinking.

Fairy tales sometimes lead to logical thinking because conclusions are absurd.

Exactly this happened to me too!

I am greatful to thios tales!

Too much guessing is good, but it leads sometimes to the abyss.

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