Luftwaffe runway surface question

[Rob de Bie]

I'm studying Brandis air base of the Luftwaffe, where most of the Me-163B Komet operations took place. Brandis had a single hardened runway. It had concrete ends, where Komets were positioned, ready for take-off. They could not taxi, and had very limited fuel, so this was the only solution. Shown here is the west-side runway end, with three Komets, of which the right has just started its motor. You can see that the runway becomes very dark past the foremost Komet:

 

 

Here's a Komet being towed over the 'dark' part of the runway. Yes, a railroad track crossed the Brandis runway.

 

 

My question is: was the 'black' (dark) part of the runway asphalt? Did that exist already, and did the Luftwaffe use it? Or was it another type of runway surface? Maybe street bricks with a tar covering? Any insights are welcome!

 

Rob

 

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163.htm

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Rob

Could the 'black' part of the runway have actually been camouflaged concrete? Take a look at this well known photo of Me 262 on a Lechfeld base platform:

 

The dark part looks just like an asphalt taxiway. However, another Lechfeld photo tells another story:

 

 

My apologies for just adding to confusion. Cheers

Jure

[Rob de Bie]

14 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello Rob

Could the 'black' part of the runway have actually been camouflaged concrete? Take a look at this well known photo of Me 262 on a Lechfeld base platform:

The dark part looks just like an asphalt taxiway. However, another Lechfeld photo tells another story:

My apologies for just adding to confusion. Cheers

Jure

 

Thanks for this alternative explanation - it's good to review all options! But I still think the Brandis runway had two distinct surface types. Here's a clear photo showing the runway surface transition:

 

 

In this video you can see Komet 'White 04' rolling from a light-colored runway part onto a dark-colored runway:

 

https://youtu.be/Qbv_nwoiKvY?t=240

 

And in this video you can see more of 'White 14' being towed over the 'black' part of the runway. The video also gives an impression of the roughness of the surface, that does not match how asphalt concrete roads look today.

 

https://youtu.be/wnwQcr8tnAw?t=204

 

Lastly, in the book 'Rote Plaetze' there's a 1953 aerial photo of Brandis, that very likely shows the original runway, with concrete ends only, and a 'black' runway otherwise.

 

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

Here's the aerial photo from 1953. I overlaid it with the Brandis map from the Classic Publications books (pages 234 and 235) , and they match really well. It shows the concrete ends well, and the transitions to the 'black' part matches operational Komet photos really well too.

 

 

I grabbed two screenshots from the video linked to earlier. They are the best views of the center portion of the Brandis runway that I know. What is this? Asphalt concrete, tarmacadam, or something else? There's a striped texture in the surface if you ask me.

 

 

 

Rob

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Rob

Well, there goes my theory about camouflaged runways. My guess is the top layer must have been based on some of the byproducts of oil refining or synthetic fuel production. However, this is hardly anything new and does not narrow down the selection of possible materials significantly either. Cheers

Jure

[Flintstone]

Rob,

I always thought the Komets started on the concrete to jump the chocks and then actually took off from the grass? Dropping the wheels would have risked a lot of damage if it was a hard surface. The grass area must have been quite good in terms of bumps and levels as the Komets definitely used it for landing.

[Flintstone]

Actually, I seem to remember a story that when the first UK jets were being tested, there was scorch marks left on the grass runways that were only noticeable from the air. Once this was identified, the photo interpreters started to look for it on German airfields and they discovered where the 262 was being tested. If you have access to a wartime view of Brandis, it may be possible to find similar marking?

[Antti_K]

Hello guys,

 

I think that Jure's explanation about camouflaged surfaces deserves a more closer look. In 1944 there was an RLM (or was it OKH) order in force giving paint shades for camouflaging airports. As Michael Ullmann explains in his books, these colours were almost identical to those known as RLM 81 and 82. And there were other shades too (like tar black).

 

Concrete surfaces are mandatory for aircraft like Me-163 and 262. The exhaust gases are so hot that they will ruin asphalt in minutes or even quicker. I was witnessing when a Vampire T.11 burnt a hole in brand new asphalt surface in a bitter cold winter day a couple of years ago (and that was only Ground Idle). When MiG-21s were purchased for the Finnish Air Force, concrete surfaces were quickly laid on the runways the MiGs were using.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Flintstone]

I definitely agree that camouflage of airfields was important as they are so obvious from the air and I am sure Brandis was no exception.

 

However, if the Komets were started on the concrete and only crossed on to the grass during take off the burn time would be small. Unlike the jets, the rocket powered Komet did not have enough fuel to stay at idle for long!

[dov]

The technology used in Germany during the war for hardened surfaces on streets, as well airfields are the same technologies used in the 1950s for paving roads.

·        Use of concrete plates

·        Gaps between concrete plates are filled with tar.

·        Use of grass as Grasnarbe

·        Use of compressed earth

·        Use of compressed earth with a layer of dust binder oil

The connection to railways are very common. Nearly all airfields had railway connection. Even intersection.

Dark parts of the runway may also exist from tear and wear.

Happy modelling

[Jochen Barett]

On 27/11/2020 at 18:04, Rob de Bie said:

Here's the aerial photo from 1953. I overlaid it with the Brandis map from the Classic Publications books (pages 234 and 235) , and they match really well. It shows the concrete ends well, and the transitions to the 'black' part matches operational Komet photos really well too.

 

I grabbed two screenshots from the video linked to earlier. They are the best views of the center portion of the Brandis runway that I know. What is this? Asphalt concrete, tarmacadam, or something else? There's a striped texture in the surface if you ask me.

 

Rob

My guess: Asphalt concrete runway (between the concrete ends) and they used a (steam) roller to get that striped texture.

 

How good is you German? The German version https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphalt is a bit more elaborate then the English version .

 

[Rob de Bie]

On 11/27/2020 at 9:06 PM, Flintstone said:

Rob,

I always thought the Komets started on the concrete to jump the chocks and then actually took off from the grass? Dropping the wheels would have risked a lot of damage if it was a hard surface. The grass area must have been quite good in terms of bumps and levels as the Komets definitely used it for landing.

 

From what I see in the videos, they indeed jumped the chocks on a concrete part of the runway, and then continued on the asphalt (?) part, not grass. I think grass would be too bumpy and draggy, slowing down the critical take-off too much. However, there are videos of 163A models taking off from grass at Peenemunde.

 

You make a good point regarding the dropped MLG axle, I hadn't considereed that. In Mano Ziegler's book he writes that they dropped it from 5 to 10 meters. That's quite a height and must have made quite an impact. I do not recall seeing a video of a MLG axle doing its dance..

Rob

 

[Rob de Bie]

On 11/27/2020 at 9:11 PM, Flintstone said:

Actually, I seem to remember a story that when the first UK jets were being tested, there was scorch marks left on the grass runways that were only noticeable from the air. Once this was identified, the photo interpreters started to look for it on German airfields and they discovered where the 262 was being tested. If you have access to a wartime view of Brandis, it may be possible to find similar marking?

 

I've got something, but it's not Brandis, but Bad Zwischenahn. Halfway the page there are aerial photos, that even show a Komet commencing its take-off roll!

 

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/airfield01.htm

 

But I don't see scorch marks. I think the attitude of the 163B was such that it did not make them?

 

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

On 11/27/2020 at 9:13 PM, Antti_K said:

Hello guys,

 

I think that Jure's explanation about camouflaged surfaces deserves a more closer look. In 1944 there was an RLM (or was it OKH) order in force giving paint shades for camouflaging airports. As Michael Ullmann explains in his books, these colours were almost identical to those known as RLM 81 and 82. And there were other shades too (like tar black).

 

Concrete surfaces are mandatory for aircraft like Me-163 and 262. The exhaust gases are so hot that they will ruin asphalt in minutes or even quicker. I was witnessing when a Vampire T.11 burnt a hole in brand new asphalt surface in a bitter cold winter day a couple of years ago (and that was only Ground Idle). When MiG-21s were purchased for the Finnish Air Force, concrete surfaces were quickly laid on the runways the MiGs were using.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

I also remember reading about the airfield camouflage colors in Ullmann's book, but I interpreted that as paint for buildings. More to look into! The videos linked to earlier in the thread seem to show bare concrete though.

 

Another reason for using concrete at runway ends is that concrete is much better for static loads, that could make an impression (literally!) on asphalt. It would 'creep' under sustained loads.

 

In the case of the Komet, maybe chemical spills are yet another reason for using concrete. I am pretty sure that asphalt would burn if you spill 80% hydrogen peroxide  (i.e. T-Stoff) on it!! I would expect concrete to be safe in that scenario.

Rob

 

 

[Rob de Bie]

On 11/27/2020 at 9:22 PM, Flintstone said:

I definitely agree that camouflage of airfields was important as they are so obvious from the air and I am sure Brandis was no exception.

 

However, if the Komets were started on the concrete and only crossed on to the grass during take off the burn time would be small. Unlike the jets, the rocket powered Komet did not have enough fuel to stay at idle for long!

 

It's my impression that they did not waste even seconds! As soon as the engine ran at full thrust, the Komet would jump ~30 mm tall (low?) wooden chocks (sticks?) and commence their take-off run.

 

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

On 11/28/2020 at 4:32 PM, dov said:

The technology used in Germany during the war for hardened surfaces on streets, as well airfields are the same technologies used in the 1950s for paving roads.

·        Use of concrete plates

·        Gaps between concrete plates are filled with tar.

·        Use of grass as Grasnarbe

·        Use of compressed earth

·        Use of compressed earth with a layer of dust binder oil

The connection to railways are very common. Nearly all airfields had railway connection. Even intersection.

Dark parts of the runway may also exist from tear and wear.

Happy modelling

 

Thanks! But do you also have an idea of the 'state of the art' of making asphalt roads in that time? I am so used to our current near-perfect asphalt highways, made with very specialised equipment. I could imagine that in the nineteen-forties the hot asphalt was brought in on small(ish) carts, dumped on the foundation, and then rolled flat with (maybe) a streamroller. That could give those longitidinal 'stripes' seen in the photos, the overlaps of the different batches rolled flat.

Rob

 

 

[scotthldr]

The surface of runways is made from Tarmacadam, asphalt is a material used in the construction of Tarmacadam.  The surface of a runway is far more course than that of any road, reasons for this are it help's to stop water pooling, gives a much more effective grip between tyre and runway and greatly increases the braking force.

 

Tarmacadam was first used in the 1800's and became popular in the early 1900's. 

[Rob de Bie]

1 hour ago, Jochen Barett said:

My guess: Asphalt concrete runway (between the concrete ends) and they used a (steam) roller to get that striped texture.

 

How good is you German? The German version https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphalt is a bit more elaborate then the English version .

 

Thanks! My German is good enough to read that 🙂 And your suggestion lead to another idea: search for German-language books with 'Asphalt' in the title, and pick those from around WW2. My local university library has the following:

 

Asphalt und asphaltmaschinen im strassenbau.
by Georg Klose
Publication year: 1927

 

Die natu¨rlichen und ku¨nstlichen Asphalte : ihre Gewinnung, Verwendung, Zusammensetzung und Untersuchung
by J Marcusson, H Burchartz, P Wilke
Publication year: 1931
    
Neue wege fu¨r den aufbau und asphalt- und teerdecken.
by R Wilhelmi
Publication year: 1933
    
Arbeitsgemeinschaft der bitumen-industrie. bitumen und asphalt : taschenbuch.
by C Zerbe
Publication year: 1958
    
Strassenplanung und bituminose bauverfahren im in- und ausland.
by Forschungsgesellschaft fu¨r das Strassenwesen, Arbeitsgruppe Asphalt- und Teerstrassen.
Publication year: 1959

 

I will check them out the next time I go there, Unless the realisation sets in that just maybe I'm going a bit overboard with my research 🙂 🙂

 

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

4 hours ago, scotthldr said:

The surface of runways is made from Tarmacadam, asphalt is a material used in the construction of Tarmacadam.  The surface of a runway is far more course than that of any road, reasons for this are it help's to stop water pooling, gives a much more effective grip between tyre and runway and greatly increases the braking force.

 

Tarmacadam was first used in the 1800's and became popular in the early 1900's. 

 

Yes, that word was going through my mind too. I did a bit of homework and came up with the following:

1. Macadam: compacted layers of single-sized crushed stone, ending with a 2 cm stone layer. Sometimes a binder was sprayed over. German name: Makadam
 
2. Tarmacadam / tarmac: macadam surface sealed with a combination of tar (from coal or wood) and sand. German name: Streumakadam, Tränkmakadam

3. Asphalt (more accurately: asphalt concrete): asphalt aka bitumen (semi-solid derivate of crude oil) mixed with aggregate (sand, gravel, crushed stone, slag). German name: Asphalt

 

The thing I don't know is whether their appearance is different. I would thinks that tar+sand looks different than asphalt+stones.

 

Plus I don't know whether tarmacadam is suitable as a runway. For example, did the RAF use tarmacadam for their runways? That would make an interesting comparison.

 

I'm sure the Luftwaffe had some construction manuals on the subject of airfield construction, but I haven't found a trace so far.

 

Rob

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Rob de Bie

[Jochen Barett]

2 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

 

---

I will check them out the next time I go there, Unless the realisation sets in that just maybe I'm going a bit overboard with my research 🙂 🙂

Rob

Go overboard? How? In case you go to Brandis (after returning from the library and after this Covid-thing is over) to check out in place and drill or dig through the layers of raunway (in what is now a sloar plant), do let me know. A former co-worker lives in the area, he might lend a shovel (and drink a beer).

 

When comparing RAF and Luftwaffe runways (other than grass) in those days consider Germany was big in brown coal in the olden days. It was dug out 100km East (Lausitz) and got liquified a few kilometers to the West at Leuna. Who knows what "useful" tarish byproducts were produced at Leuna that could help bind dirt and dust to build a road or runway?

[dov]

In Austria:

The surface quality of asphalt (and other material of this sort) roads in the late 1950s was very poor.

The tear and wear was awful.

Consider, short after the war until the mid 1960s.

State of the art was concrete.

[Flintstone]

I have been looking at my various books to see what I could find. Nothing adds to the definitive answer, but here goes anyway!

 

In volume 2 of the the 163 book by Ransom and Cammann there are two pages of interest:-

 

P286 clearly states the Komets always took off from concrete. But, there is a good picture on the same page showing the collection of a dropped wheel / dolly and it is on grass. Sadly it does not say where it was taken, but it is definitely a Berta and not an Anton wheel set.

 

P255 shows Komets at the end of the runway or on a concrete hardstanding pointing towards a darker surface (picture in Rob's thread above). There is variation in the darker surface, so it could be paint (or similar), it could be another hard material or it could be grass? I do think that there would be a difference in texture and colour between trimmed grass and wild grass on black and white images, particularly as the depth of field of the camera is more focussed on the aircraft rather than the background!

 

So the outcome of this post is I still don't have a clue!

[Rob de Bie]

16 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

Go overboard? How? In case you go to Brandis (after returning from the library and after this Covid-thing is over) to check out in place and drill or dig through the layers of raunway (in what is now a sloar plant), do let me know. A former co-worker lives in the area, he might lend a shovel (and drink a beer).

 

When comparing RAF and Luftwaffe runways (other than grass) in those days consider Germany was big in brown coal in the olden days. It was dug out 100km East (Lausitz) and got liquified a few kilometers to the West at Leuna. Who knows what "useful" tarish byproducts were produced at Leuna that could help bind dirt and dust to build a road or runway?

 

Going to Brandis would be nice indeed! But digging up the former runway would be useless I think, the Soviets resurfaced it, and I guess they started with a new foundation.

 

Good point about the brown coal being the main source of fuel. As far as I understand the materials, coal would produce tar, instead of bitumen in the case of crude oil. The former seems to be linked to tarmacadam, the latter to asphalt. But maybe I simplified things too much.

 

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

8 hours ago, dov said:

In Austria:

The surface quality of asphalt (and other material of this sort) roads in the late 1950s was very poor.

The tear and wear was awful.

Consider, short after the war until the mid 1960s.

State of the art was concrete.

 

Thanks, that's the kind of time-witness accounts that we need! It's easy to forget how methods and technology have improved in 75 years.

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

4 hours ago, Flintstone said:

I have been looking at my various books to see what I could find. Nothing adds to the definitive answer, but here goes anyway!

 

In volume 2 of the the 163 book by Ransom and Cammann there are two pages of interest:-

 

P286 clearly states the Komets always took off from concrete. But, there is a good picture on the same page showing the collection of a dropped wheel / dolly and it is on grass. Sadly it does not say where it was taken, but it is definitely a Berta and not an Anton wheel set.

 

P255 shows Komets at the end of the runway or on a concrete hardstanding pointing towards a darker surface (picture in Rob's thread above). There is variation in the darker surface, so it could be paint (or similar), it could be another hard material or it could be grass? I do think that there would be a difference in texture and colour between trimmed grass and wild grass on black and white images, particularly as the depth of field of the camera is more focussed on the aircraft rather than the background!

 

So the outcome of this post is I still don't have a clue!

 

Thanks for checking the great Komet books!

 

 

Regarding the middle part of the runway being camouflaged concrete or apshalt / tarmacadem, I think the 1953 photo contains the answer. Although I don't know what the spots are (repairs maybe), the middle part is still dark ('black'). It would be an amazing coincidence that the Soviets decided to camouflage exactlty that part too, and used the same dark colours.

 

 

My main question still is what construction technique was used for that middle part. Is it tarmacadam or asphalt?

 

Rob