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Hurricane, 73 Sq France May 1940, TP-O P25?? - but early windscreen fitted?


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Just to clarify, two different spinners are being discussed.  The colour photo is of course a still from the Battle of Britain and features a restoration of RCAF Hurricane 5377.  This was one of the "Prairie Hurricanes" that escapes scrapping and then was restored in Canada by Bob Diemert.  It was shipped to the UK for the Battle of Britain movie and certainly was fitted with a "Canadian" spinner and Hamilton Standard prop.  It passed along to Strathallen where it was fitted with a Rotol prop and spinner.  Upon returning to Canada it was involved in a nose over incident and the Rotol blades were replaced with a Hamilton Standard prop but retaining the Rotol spinner.  It was then destroyed in a fire.

 

At least two RCAF Hurricanes fly in the US with the Ham Standard prop and spinner combination.  I believe 5477 will do the same when it flys in 2021 in Canada...though masquerading as a Hurricane I.  Luckily, two static Hurricanes have been restored in Canada without the spinner.  One in Calgary and one in Wetaskiwin.  (Which was just updated and looks so much better these days.)

 

Btw, there was another mod made to Canadian Hurricanes when the spinner was fitted.  Many of the OTU aircraft, especially the RT equipped aircraft have had the centerline carburetor intake removed.  No idea why...but attached is a portion of my IPMS Canada/RT article that illustrates both the Canadian spinner and the missing carb intake.  

 

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The other blunt spinner is on Hurricane P5206/GN-L pictured in the Wingleader book.  It sure looks to me like that is a Rotol prop and the spinner is similar, but not exactly like the 1943 Canadian spinner.  Sure is a fascinating photo.

 

I feel like the more I learn about the CCF and RCAF Hurricanes, the less I know!

 

Jim

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45 minutes ago, airjiml2 said:

Just to clarify, two different spinners are being discussed.  The colour photo is of course a still from the Battle of Britain and features a restoration of RCAF Hurricane 5377.  This was one of the "Prairie Hurricanes" that escapes scrapping and then was restored in Canada by Bob Diemert.  It was shipped to the UK for the Battle of Britain movie and certainly was fitted with a "Canadian" spinner and Hamilton Standard prop.  It passed along to Strathallen where it was fitted with a Rotol prop and spinner.  Upon returning to Canada it was involved in a nose over incident and the Rotol blades were replaced with a Hamilton Standard prop but retaining the Rotol spinner.  It was then destroyed in a fire.

 

At least two RCAF Hurricanes fly in the US with the Ham Standard prop and spinner combination.  I believe 5477 will do the same when it flys in 2021 in Canada...though masquerading as a Hurricane I.  Luckily, two static Hurricanes have been restored in Canada without the spinner.  One in Calgary and one in Wetaskiwin.  (Which was just updated and looks so much better these days.)

 

The one destroyed in a fire: was it the one that was at the CWH museum? I was there in "88, for the first flight of Lancaster VR-A.

 

50660918543_98694e5f98_b.jpg

 

 

This is the Hurricane that's at the Reynold's Museum in Wetaskiwin. This was taken in '08.

 

50661675096_8bc02639b2_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

Also! In the colour photo posted above of the two Hurcs from the BoB movie, the one on the left has 6-port exhaust as used on a Spitfire, instead of the usual 3-port one one the other Hurc.

 

Chris

 

 

 

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Thanks to Carl and Airjim for your info.
All in all therefore, it seems the spinner on Hurricane P5206 –GN-L is not of Canadian manufacture unless it was some kind of prototype designed for Rotol props. Having taken a closer look at the book photo I think it is clear that is the type fitted to the aircraft.


I doubt very much that it was Rotol produced as the new bullet spinners were coming into production by October 1940.


Could it perhaps be a trick of the light/photograph/damage/missing spinner shell nose spring cap and in reality it’s an ES6 spinner?

 

Curiouser and curiouser.
 

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5 hours ago, dogsbody said:

 

The one destroyed in a fire: was it the one that was at the CWH museum? I was there in "88, for the first flight of Lancaster VR-A.

 

Yep, and I was there as well.  Great weekend!  

 

The Reynolds Museum Hurricane has had some work done on it since they finished the Calgary Hurricane.  It looks so much better these days.

 

Jim

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2 hours ago, airjiml2 said:

 

Yep, and I was there as well.  Great weekend!  

 

The Reynolds Museum Hurricane has had some work done on it since they finished the Calgary Hurricane.  It looks so much better these days.

 

Jim

 

This year I was sort of planning a trip south to see the aviation museums in Alberta. The Alberta Aviation museum in Edmonton, then swing down to Wataskiwin, to the Reynolds museum. Next stop would be the Hanger Flight Museum in Calgary, then down to The Bomber Command Museum in Nanton. Unfortunately, that never happened!

I didn't even get my yearly pilgrimage in to the Alberta Aviation Museum. I'm jonesing badly!

 

 

 

 

Chris

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Canadian Built Hurricanes.

All sent to Britain were incomplete airframes, so required work before issuing which would normally include bringing them to current RAF standard.  How far CCF was behind current RAF production standards, for example better pilot protection in 1939/40, is unclear.

 

The initial CCF contract for 40 was signed on 24 November 1938, L1848 was sent to Canada as a pattern aircraft, produced in February 1939, shipped that month and returned to Britain in 1940, so that is the standard CCF would have as an example, L2144 Contract Card and Delivery Log entries says to Canada as pattern, presumably in September 1939 but no further details, it disappears.  The RCAF received L1759-63, L1878-90 and L2101-3., when the survivors returned to Britain in 1940 they required work to bring them to current RAF standards.

 

All CCF mark I shipped to Britain arrived engineless.  For CCF mark II arriving in Britain it was 447 engineless, 234 with Merlin 28 (118 in early 1942, 116 in early 1943).  Apart from a few test flights the Merlin 28 were replaced by Merlin XX, the Merlin 28 went to Lancasters.

 

As of end September 1942 orders (complete or being filled) from the US for Hurricanes were 144 Merlin 28, 480 Merlin 29 and 480 Hamilton Standard 23-E-50 propellers while 763 Hurricanes had been reported shipped less engines and propellers.  (Total production to end of month 1,055, including 30 mark I for the RCAF, 50 Sea Hurricanes, 105 mark XII, so 870 available to be shipped, of which 852 had arrived in Britain and 16 lost at sea, while 763+118 arriving with engines = 881).  So rough agreement between different reports.

 

The US War Production Board says Canada started making propellers in the first quarter of 1941, Hamilton Standard 12D40 and miscellaneous wooden types, in the second quarter production of Hoover 2030 was begun, that is it for Canadian aircraft propeller production.

 

The evidence is any CCF built Hurricane outside of Canada was equipped with a British engine and propeller, apart from a few Merlin 28 test flights.  For those serving in the RCAF it was either British engine and propeller supply for mark I standard or US for mark XII standard.

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Some more info from Carl Vincent ( @ CarlV )

 

"  Some might be interested in seeing illustrations of some of the features of the RCAF Hurricane engines and propellers that have been discussed here.

The first two are stitch-ups that I made showing, in each, on the left the Merlin III and cut-down propeller used on the 30 Hurricane I “Battle Hurricanes” and, on the right, the Merlin XXIX and Hamilton Standard propeller on the Hurricane II B (Can)/XII. The third photo shows a Hurricane XII of 1 OTU showing the clearance behind the spinner and the absent carburetor air intake. "

 

Carl

 

Sorry! I forgot to post the photos and Flickr is off-line right now.

 

 

Chris, for Carl

 

 

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Getting back to the original list of suspects.

Battle of France Then and Now

 

P2539 19 May Force landed, damaged by return fire of Ju88 aircraft "D" abandoned.
P2541 no entry
P2543 19 May Crash landed, damaged by Bf110, aircraft a write off
P2545 no entry
P2569 11 May, badly damaged in engine and tail plane by Bf110, force landed at Rouvres, aircraft "D" repairable but later abandoned
P2570 29 March, damaged by Bf109, overturned on landing, aircraft a write off.
P2575 10 May, damaged by Do17, force landed, repairable, "J".

 

Delivery logs note P2570 and P2575 survived until 1944.

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19 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Some more info from Carl Vincent ( @ CarlV )

 

"  Some might be interested in seeing illustrations of some of the features of the RCAF Hurricane engines and propellers that have been discussed here.

The first two are stitch-ups that I made showing, in each, on the left the Merlin III and cut-down propeller used on the 30 Hurricane I “Battle Hurricanes” and, on the right, the Merlin XXIX and Hamilton Standard propeller on the Hurricane II B (Can)/XII. The third photo shows a Hurricane XII of 1 OTU showing the clearance behind the spinner and the absent carburetor air intake. "

 

Carl

 

Sorry! I forgot to post the photos and Flickr is off-line right now.

 

 

Chris, for Carl

 

 

 

The photos I forgot to post yesterday!

 

50666515246_b12bec030c_b.jpg

 

50666592692_0f9a09db2d_b.jpg

 

50665769373_377b0548cb_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

Chris

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Probably fitted a spare Troy,.... I`ve seen at least one Sea Hurricane Ib fitted with an early windscreen mate?

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On 01/12/2020 at 17:16, dogsbody said:

 

The photos I forgot to post yesterday!

 

50666515246_b12bec030c_b.jpg

 

50666592692_0f9a09db2d_b.jpg

 

50665769373_377b0548cb_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

Chris

It's interesting to note that the shortened version of the dH Battle prop blades appear to be in use on the HS hydromatic hub which if so, catered for the same blade shank size.

In many photographs of the Battle, the blades have a 'needle-like' look (due to blade pitch/camera angle etc) when in fact the maximum chord would be similar to that of the dH Hurricane version, hence no doubt it's adoption for use. The rounding of the tip crates an almost paddle-blade appearance.  

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3 hours ago, V Line said:

It's interesting to note that the shortened version of the dH Battle prop blades appear to be in use on the HS hydromatic hub which if so, catered for the same blade shank size.

In many photographs of the Battle, the blades have a 'needle-like' look (due to blade pitch/camera angle etc) when in fact the maximum chord would be similar to that of the dH Hurricane version, hence no doubt it's adoption for use. The rounding of the tip crates an almost paddle-blade appearance.  

 

I believe the DH prop was a licensed production of the Hamilton Standard prop.

 

 

 

Chris

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Indeed it was, and differences in diameter for different aircraft was achieved as described, by shortening from a longer master.  There was a long and fascinating thread on the Key Heritage aviation forum a year or so back, from someone much better informed than I, who was attempting a complete understanding of the DH/Hamilton propeller range.

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