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Hurricane, 73 Sq France May 1940, TP-O P25?? - but early windscreen fitted?


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found on Facebook Hurricane appreciation society.  

Some discussion 

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10156568981547348&set=gm.10156098355664472

 

50648743566_8e59a1ef8c_o.jpgHurricane TP-O P25xx  may 1940. by

losethekibble, on Flickr

 

There appears to be a serial, looks like P25??, Only a few P25** fit, as in being with 73 sq,

 

from Air Britain, P2539, P2541 , P2543 - 43/73, P2545 -1/73, (P2569 - is D, see below) , all Lost in France 5.40 P2570(survived till 44) P2575/J (see below)

 

What I find really interesting is that this has the early curved lower edge windshield with external armour, which seemed to have been phased out somewhere in the L**** batch.

 

This is the main oddity to me.   Anyone else have any other similar serial  Hurricanes with this feature? 

 

I presume this is a German photo off ebay, and looks remarkably intact, considering the state on most captured Hurricanes.

 

I'll @Graham Boak in case 12 Days in May has anything (my copy not too hand)

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28 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

note the early aerial mast which is also a bit surprising to see on a P serial.

You might think so....but

Hawker-Hurricane-I-RAF-73Sqn-D-P2569-J-P

D/P2569 , J/P2575 and X/P2647 all have pole type masts.

The above (apart from eliminating some possibles from TP-O identity)  appaera to show external armour on the windscreens,  I enlarged the photo to see if the curved lower screen was a feature of the early P**** series.  They look straight edge, P2647 is

Hawker-Hurricane-I-RAF-73Sqn-TPX-P2647-l

 

this scan from replic magazine

RAF-73Sqn-TPD-P2559-flown-by-Cobber-Kain

 

list the serials of the planes in the 19th April 1940 photos, so perhaps there is a listing for TP-O somewhere? 

I'll put a @Steven Eisenman in as he posted the TP-O image on facebook.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

You might think so....but

Hawker-Hurricane-I-RAF-73Sqn-D-P2569-J-P

D/P2569 , J/P2575 and X/P2647 all have pole type masts.

IIRC we discussed this some posts ago.

Reportedly, the first 100 Hurricanes built by Glosters, P2535-P2584, P2614-P2653, P2672-P2681 had the straight aerial mast initially associated with the TR.9D HF radio.

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34 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

IIRC we discussed this some posts ago.

Hmm, no, I don't recall,  a link would be handy.  Probably buried in the 70 pages of the Hurricane thread. 

Still, no harm in being reminded :) 

 

Any thoughts on the windscreen issue?    That's the detail that is bugging me.  I has presumed that kind of screen went out in the mid L**** production run.... 

 

Note, on page 87 of the Wingleader Hurricane album, Hurricane P5206, GN-L, which is one of a batch of 40 Canadian planes, which has the curved screen and no rectangular starboard hatch, AND that weird blunt Canadian spinner, which really is new little detail. 

@StevSmar @Crimea River @dogsbody @airjiml2 one too note. 

 

For those who like Hurricane photos

https://www.wingleader.co.uk/ww2images?limit=20&page=1&searchType=any&searchString=hurricane

 

is some of the Wingleader archive, some I know, some i don't.  Well worth a browse.   

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4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Hmm, no, I don't recall,  a link would be handy.  Probably buried in the 70 pages of the Hurricane thread. 

Still, no harm in being reminded :)

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963507-all-the-hurricane-questions-you-want-to-ask-here/page/68/&tab=comments#comment-3784983

 

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I think the answer to the windscreen question is all about timing. This looks like P2539, so one of the first Gloster built Hurricanes, delivered around November 1939 which is before the N series were delivered and around the time the final L series aircraft were in production.  Mods weren't introduced by serial number, they were introduced by date, and some were incorporated quicker than others between factories.  So for example, the internal windscreen could have been delivered to Hawkers in October 1939 to fit the last 100 L series aircraft, but in November to Glosters which missed, for example, the first 20 aircraft on their production line. 

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10 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

The Airfix 1/72 kit has both types of windscreens. The armoured glass one is on the right.

it does indeed, and both are wrong as the main canopy is too high.... making the windscreens stretched.   

The Rob Taurus replacements just copy the kit parts :fraidnot:

I'm really going to have to investigate get a corrected replacement vac set made......  

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For an idea when the different Hurricane serial blocks were built, with the obvious reminder there are always exceptions.

 

Hawker production begins December 1937 and ends in July 1944.

Serial blocks 600 L, 300 N, 510 P, 10 R, 4 W, 496 V, 1000 Z, 4 AS, 207 BD, 393 BE, 89 BM, 666 BN, 495 BP, 340 HL, 48 HM, 506 HV, 494 HW, 225 KW, 594 KX, 637 KZ, 44 LA, 329, LB, 576 LD, 567 LE, 489 LF, 39 MW, 150 PG, 112 PZ

Cumulative total to end of serial block, 600 L, 900 N, 1410 P, 1420 R, 1424 W, 1920 V, 2920 Z, 2924 AS, 3131 BD, 3524 BE, 3613 BM, 4279 BN, 4774 BP, 5114 HL, 5162 HM, 5668 HV, 6162 HW, 6387 KW, 6981 KX, 7618 KZ, 7662 LA, 7991 LB, 8567 LD, 9134 LE, 9623 LF, 9662 MW, 9812 PG, 9924 PZ.

 

Oct-39    Hawker L serials end (641 Hurricanes built to end of month) N serials begin
Mar-40    Hawker N serials end (951 Hurricanes built to end of month), P serials begin
Jul-40    Hawker P serials end, R and W serials begin and end (1,591 Hurricanes built to end of month), V serials begin
Aug-40    Hawker Z serials, mark II, begin, so building V serial mark I and Z serial mark II in parallel.
Dec-40    Last V serials from Langley
Jan-41    Last V serials from Brooklands, (actually delivered 1 February)
Feb-41    The 4 AS serials delivered, mark I, from Brooklands, 3 on the 1st, the other on the 5th.  Officially only 1 mark I produced in February, while 224 mark II produced August 1940 to January 1941.
Jul-41    Hawker Z serials end (2,984 Hurricanes built to end of month), BD serials begin
Aug-41    Hawker BD serials end (3,150 Hurricanes built to end of month), BE serials begin
Oct-41    Hawker BE serials end at Brooklands, BM serials built at Brooklands October to December 1941. (3,488 Hurricanes built to end of month)
Nov-41    Hawker BE serials end at Langley (3,618 Hurricanes built to end of month) BN serials begin at Langley
Dec-41    Hawker BM serials end at Brooklands, (3,800 Hurricanes built to end of month) BN serials begin at Brooklands
Mar-42    Hawker BN serials end (4,393 Hurricanes built to end of month), BP serials begin
May-42    Hawker BP serials end (4,877 Hurricanes built to end of month), HL serials begin
Jun-42    Hawker HM serials begin, all built at Langley June and July 1942, HL serials end at Langley
Jul-42    Hawker HL (Brooklands) and HM (Langley) serials end (5,362 Hurricanes built to end of month), HV serials begin
Sep-42    Hawker HV serials end (5,817 Hurricanes built to end of month), HW serials begin
Oct-42    Last deliveries from Brooklands, 84 delivered in September, 2 in October.
Nov-42    Hawker HW serials end (6,218 Hurricanes built to end of month), KW serials begin, but mark IV HW683, HW747 not officially produced until December
Dec-42    Hawker KW serials end (6,494 Hurricanes built to end of month), KX serials begin but mark IV KW792, 799, 800, 804, 807, 808, 809, 816, 817, 897, 899, 908 to 911, 918 to 921 not delivered until May 1943, KX serial mark IV deliveries not delayed
Feb-43    Hawker KZ serials begin (6,932 Hurricanes built to end of month)
Mar-43    Hawker KX serials end (7,211 Hurricanes built to end of month)
May-43    Hawker KZ serials end, LA serials begin and end (7,681 Hurricanes built to end of month), LB serials begin
Jul-43    Hawker LB serials end (8,120 Hurricanes built to end of month), LD serials begin
Sep-43    Hawker LD serials end (8,602 Hurricanes built to end of month), LE serials begin
Dec-43    Hawker LE serials end (9,236 Hurricanes built to end of month), LF serials begin
Mar-44    Hawker LF serials end, MW serials begin and end, (9,676 Hurricanes built to end of month), PG serials begin
May-44    Hawker PG serials end (9,826 Hurricanes built to end of month), PZ serials begin

 

Gloster production begins in October 1939 under Contract 962371/38 Requisition 195/38, which is split 500 Gloster, 292 Hawker Brooklands, 232 Hawker Langley.  Gloster production ends in March 1942

Serial blocks 500 P, 100 R, 500 V, 200 W, 1,000 Z, 255 BG, 195 BH

Cumulative total to end of serial block 500 P, 600 R, 1100 V, 1300 W, 2,300 Z, 2555 BG, 2700 BH

 

Jul-40    Gloster P serials end, (568 Hurricanes built to end of month) R serials begin
Aug-40    Gloster R serials end, (708 Hurricanes built to end of month) V serials begin
Nov-40    Gloster V serials end (1,122 Hurricanes built to end of month) W serials begin
Jan-41    Gloster W serials end (1,300 Hurricanes built to end of month) Z serials begin
May-41    First Gloster mark II delivered
Jun-41    Last Gloster mark I delivered
Sep-41    Gloster Z serials end (2,312 Hurricanes built to end of month) BG serials begin
Dec-41    Gloster BG serials end (2,602 Hurricanes built to end of month, 2,531 to end November) BH serials begin


Canada, production from February 1940 to May 1943, there are several problems, firstly the first dates mentioned are often when arriving in Britain or an RCAF date that is different to an RAF one, plus the final 60 mark I were stored in Canada and in any case arrivals in Britain were incomplete airframes, with some of the mark II ones fitted with Merlin 28 but flown with Merlin XX, so work had to be done on all arrivals before being issued, and this can probably best be seen by the way Canada built mark IIB for the RAF but many are listed as IIC.

 

That said the mark I seem to have been done in serial order.  Then comes the emergency of late 1941, with the BW sea Hurricanes arriving mostly first,  then in the December 1941 to April 1942 period the remaining mark II AG (February to April, except AG341), the AM (December to April), AP (February), BW (April and May) and BX (February to April) serials with the first 25 or so AM serials delayed, arriving after later AM serials.  JS serials begin in April 1942.


In May 1942 only JS serials, then in June after the first 150 JS serials, production switches to the RCAF order, back to the final 100 JS serials in March 1943, then back to the final probably 25 of the RCAF order in June 1943.  With AG341 officially arriving in June 1943.

 

Serial blocks P 40, T 20, Z 100, AE 20, AF 55, AG 265 (245+20), AM 100, AP 1, BW 165 (First 50 Sea Hurricanes), BX 35, JS 250, RCAF 400
Cumulative total to end of serial block P 40, T 60, Z 160, AE 180, AF 235, AG (first group) 480, AG (second group) 500, AM 600, AP 601, BW 766, BX 801, JS 1051, Can 1451.

 

Aug-40    CCF P serials end, (40 Hurricanes built to end of month)
Sep-40    CCF T serials begin, (41 Hurricanes built to end of month)
Nov-40    CCF T serials end, (61 Hurricanes built to end of month), Z serials begin
Mar-41    CCF Z serials end, AE serials begin and end, (223 Hurricanes built to end of month, 157 to end February), AF serials begin
Apr-41    CCF AF serials end, (281 Hurricanes built to end of month), AG serials, first group, begin
Aug-41    CCF AG serials, first group, end, (485 Hurricanes built to end of month), AG serials, second group, begin.  Production halted until late October, so cumulative total to end October is 486)
Nov-41    CCF Mark II and Sea Hurricane production begin.  The Sea Hurricanes are all built by end January at the latest and possibly end December.  See notes about AG, AM, AP, BW and BX serials.
Mar-42    CCF Cumulative production to end month 783
Apr-42    CCF End of AG (except AG341), AM, AP, BW and BX serials (851 Hurricanes built to end of month), start of JS serials
Jun-42    CCF Temporary end of JS serials after 150 built, start of RCAF order.  (969 Hurricanes built to end of month)
Feb-43    CCF Probable resumption of final 100 JS serials, plus AG341, temporary end of RCAF order after probably 375 built.  (1,401 Hurricanes built to end of month)  By around this stage 150 of the RCAF order are to be sent to Britain.
Mar-43    CCF Probable end of final 100 JS serials, plus AG341, resumption of RCAF order. (1,437 Hurricanes built to end of month)

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On 11/26/2020 at 3:02 PM, Troy Smith said:

Note, on page 87 of the Wingleader Hurricane album, Hurricane P5206, GN-L, which is one of a batch of 40 Canadian planes, which has the curved screen and no rectangular starboard hatch, AND that weird blunt Canadian spinner, which really is new little detail. 

@StevSmar @Crimea River @dogsbody @airjiml2 one too note. 

 

 

Wow, that is very interesting.  Thank you for posting.  Any take on what prop that is fitted to P5206?  I'm also intrigued by YO-R on the same page.  I didn't know any of the Canadian built Hurricanes were with 1 Squadron RCAF.

 

The odd thing is that I don't think CCF had invented the "Canadian' spinner this early.  Another mystery!

 

Jim

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2 hours ago, airjiml2 said:

Any take on what prop that is fitted to P5206?

it looks like this as best as I can make out, so seems that CCF had come up with that spinner much earlier than was thought.  But, given that there were only 40 CCF Hurricanes in the BoB,  and, so far, two photos,  only one showing the prop then it's not that surprising it's been 'lost' for years.  Perhaps @dogsbody could ask Carl Vincent if he has anything on this?

8822787.jpg

 

Perhaps @Mark Postlethwaite could post the image P5206,  or I can post this if this is OK with Wingleader? 

 

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Hi Tony,

 

Anything is possible, but as far as I can tell the only CCF Hurricane flown in Canada out of the first 40 was P5170.  (As best I can tell, the next CCF Hurri to fly in Canada was AF964.)  It flew with a DH prop and spinner.  All the remaining aircraft were completed without engines, props, and spinners, so it is most likely this outfit was done in the UK.  

 

But it is odd, that this isn't a normal spinner.  That sure doesn't look like a Hamilton Standard prop and I've never seen anything about them being applied to Hurricanes before the RCAF order of the Hurricane XII.  (And the RCAF was requesting spinners for the Hurris pretty much from the day they got the XII.)  Remember that the RCAF Sea Hurricanes used DH props and spinners and the 13XX serial RCAF aircraft used Battle Merlins and props with no spinners.  

 

That is a fascinating photo, that raises more questions than it answers for sure.

 

Jim

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On 11/28/2020 at 2:09 AM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

For an idea when the different Hurricane serial blocks were built

 

That's wonderful, Geoffrey, but alas it prompted a fuzzy thought which I then verified (if looking up online counts): Didn't Austin build some, too?

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18 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

That's wonderful, Geoffrey, but alas it prompted a fuzzy thought which I then verified (if looking up online counts): Didn't Austin build some, too?

Austin built 300, all AP serials, and I was differentiating between the blocks based on their initial letter(s) and I thought I had posted the Austin production details earlier.  Production February 1941 to October 1942 but probably more to note is only 10 built to end July 1941 after a new record monthly output of 3 in July, then 5 in August before output began ramping up.

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The prop and spinner on the furthest aircraft in the colour photograph looks to be a Rotol with the blades being of a type found on the Mk's II and IV.

 

As to the aircraft in the foreground - I assume this is in Canada- the blades could be de Havilland or Hamilton Standard types. I have seen photographs of Hurricanes in Canada with the hydromatic prop without spinner. I wonder if it is possible this is a spinner designed specifically for the hydromatic. The distance between the cowling collar and spinner base is far greater than would be found on the Rotol or bracket types and the shape of the shell would lend itself to housing the hydromatic dome.

 

To my eye, the odd spinner pictured in the Wing Leader book (p87) is similar but not identical. The prop blades in the photo do not appear to be DH types and could be Rotol judging by the blade root shape and projecting hub section/blade adapter, which would make it even more unusual.

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If the colour photograph being talked about is that of "C" H3423 posted above then that is a still from the Battle of Britain movie,

 

https://wings-on-film.fandom.com/wiki/PZ865

PZ865 Appearances: Battle of Britain Carried serials H3421, H3423, & H3424 and squadron codes MI-C, MI-D, MI-G, KV-A, & OK-I

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Thank you Geoffrey,

I should have realised.

Confirms the Rotol prop on 'H3423.'

My comments on the other spinner/prop still stand. I quickly googled for a photo of the Canadian Mk XII that was also used in the film but couldn't find a photo. Perhaps it was a replica although it looks fairy convincing -that is apart from the spinner.🙂

 

 

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7 minutes ago, V Line said:

Confirms the Rotol prop on 'H3423.'

An ES/9 AFAIK.  

7 minutes ago, V Line said:

My comments on the other spinner/prop still stand. I quickly googled for a photo of the Canadian Mk XII that was also used in the film but couldn't find a photo.

There were only 3 airworthy Hurricane for the film, PZ865, LF363, and the Strathallen Canadian one.   Again, AFAIK the spinner is the standard Canadian one,  I just used this photo as it was a good clear shot of the spinner. 

BE505 flies with a Canadian prop

hurricane2.jpg

 

I found this online,  which is a decent close up

3046.jpg

 

two other detail points,  you can see the change from flush rivets on the leading edge to dome head, and it has 3 spoke wheels occasionally seen on warbirds.

7 minutes ago, V Line said:

Perhaps it was a replica although it looks fairy convincing -that is apart from the spinner.

given the flightline shot, and the state of the exhausts, it's not one of the replicas.

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27 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

An ES/9 AFAIK.  

There were only 3 airworthy Hurricane for the film, PZ865, LF363, and the Strathallen Canadian one.   Again, AFAIK the spinner is the standard Canadian one,  I just used this photo as it was a good clear shot of the spinner. 

BE505 flies with a Canadian prop

hurricane2.jpg

 

I found this online,  which is a decent close up

3046.jpg

 

two other detail points,  you can see the change from flush rivets on the leading edge to dome head, and it has 3 spoke wheels occasionally seen on warbirds.

given the flightline shot, and the state of the exhausts, it's not one of the replicas.

That's a good photo. Thank you.(not clear on which aircraft it is as I understood the Canadian aircraft used in the film had been destroyed some time ago and the photo looks very recent).

The blades are not those used on the Mk I Hurricane DH bracket prop and look to be Hamilton Standard types similar to those seen on the Canadian Mk XII fitted with the Hydromatic.

It's not a 1940 fitting. There is a also a difference here in that the gap behind the spinner is nominal whereas that of the film aircraft is pronounced even allowing for camera angle. It would be interesting to know which type of prop is under the spinner in both instances as it would help our understanding of the matter.

 

You will know the photos below:

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/site_graphics/Aircraft/Aircraft---Canada/Hawker-Hurricane-Mk--XII--RCAF--Serial-No--5625---1-.jpg

 

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/site_graphics/Aircraft/Aircraft---Canada/awker-Hurricane-Mk--XII-from-No--130-Panther--F--Squadron.jpg

 

which show the projection of the HS prop. There is another photo on the same site which shows how close the dH bracket hub is to the cowl:

 

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/site_graphics/Aircraft/Aircraft---Canada/Hawker-Hurricane--RCAF--Serial-No--1362--on-Noorduyn-skis--CCF-Factory--1942--Griffin-Library-via-Fred-Paradie.jpg

 

It seems to me the website gives a pretty good coverage of the types of Canadian built and/or operated Hurricanes but none of them appear to show a bracket prop with this style of spinner. The Rotol types have standard Rotol versions. Those with the spinner seem to have a more pronounced gap than that of the aircraft pictured e.g:

 

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/site_graphics/Aircraft/Aircraft---Canada/Hawker-Hurricane-Mk-XII--Canada-Air--amp--Space-Museum--14-.jpg

 

The spinner in the 'Wing Leader' photo seems particularly unusual for the reasons I put forward above although the photo is not easy to interpret.

 

Incidentally, I can't think of a good reason why the hydromatic was not fitted with a spinner as logically there should be a performance penalty due to lack of streamlining unless there was a cooling issue which I have neither heard nor read of. I wondered about this is in the context of the dH and 'Bullet' Rotol spinners where there are discernable gaps between the spinner backplate and the cowling panels. The wartime versions in the 'silverhawk ' photographs and in the few I saw on a quick google search are all without spinners which suggests they are post-war additions.

 

 

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1.            What an interesting discussion! Chris has asked me if I have any input on the subject. While the Hurricane is not really one of my subjects, I have accumulated a few hundred pages of documentation over the years and have managed to put a few things together.  

2.            Canadian produced Hurricanes. The exiguous condition of these aircraft built to contracts for the RAF does not seem to be generally known. The best description is one quoted by the Director of Aircraft Production on 24 April 1941 when he stated that CCF “… had been turning out airframes less engines, propellers, instruments, wheels, tyres and brakes, radios and guns, and less, as well, the items of Appendix A (embodiment loans).” Apparently enough of some of the above components were maintained at the factory to permit occasional aircraft to be tested before being shipped overseas.

                As far as I know, the only UK-contracted aircraft to come off the line reasonably ready to go were the 50 Sea Hurricanes with serials BW835-884 which were fitted with reconditioned Merlin III’s and de Havilland propellers and spinners supplied directly from the UK.

3.            Spinners.   I believe that Geoffrey’s remarks to the effect that the photo concerned is a still from The Battle of Britain is the explanation for this anomaly.

                The blunt Canadian spinner was produced in Canada in response to concerns (apparently quite justified) of fume problems due to the lack of spinners for the Hamilton Standard propellers and the resulting aperture. These spinners were retrofitted to the RCAF’s Hurricane XII’s and XIIa’s from about mid-1943.

3.            I hope this is of some interest.

Carl

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