PBY4 Catalina

[Pauly Boy]

 2 Squadrons of PBY's in the Philippines in Dec 1941. What would the colour scheme be? I believe they had a camo scheme prior to hostilities but could this have carried over before a "combat" version was introduced? Thanks for your time... Paul

[expositor]

Not sure way out there, but the bg/lg scheme was already in effect, so it's not unreasonable to assume those planes were so painted.  

[Graham Boak]

The PBY's at Pearl Harbor were painted in a multi-colour scheme with bands getting lighter down the fuselage, so it seems possible that the ones in the Philippines had the same, but I don't know that.

[stevehnz]

I'm not sure info on this has advanced any more since your last thread on this 4 years ago, or is likely to barring some sort of miracle. The first couple of photos & last one on this page give an impression of the sort of finish that was put in place. In reading the history of Pat Wing 10, "Into the Hands of Fate" the impression is of a hastily applied top side camo, probably every aircraft was different, using locally sourced paints, whether from navy or army sources isn't known but maybe a random pattern of Olive Drab & Neutral Grey over the USN Mid blue grey??? This site linked to by @jimmaas has a decent impression of what it may have been like, beyond that its pure guess work afaik.

A photo of Pat Wing 10 PB4Ys on the ground in the Philippines, pity it isn't bigger & clearer.

Steve.

[Dana Bell]

Hi Pauly Boy,

 

My name shows up in some of the linked threads  referenced above, so I thought I'd add in some details to help you with your color choices.  Let me start by saying that I don't know what colors those two prewar squadrons were painted.  They were eventually to become the Black Cats, but that was later in the war.  They were not painted in the same scheme as seen at Pearl Harbor - those aircraft wore Dayton R. E. Brown's Seagull scheme, a graded progression of black to white down the fuselage sides (with dark blue to white on a single aircraft).

 

The known recon photos of the Philippine PBYs were dated April, May, and October 1941 - eliminating the possibility that the camouflages were applied in a rush at the last minute.  From 1935 through 1940, the Navy's standard camouflage was a combination of yellow-greens and blue-greens, which certainly made sense for the Philippines.  The change to the single Blue Gray upper camouflage was made in December 1940 for the US Fleet, but this did not initially include the Asiatic Fleet, a separate command.  The first PBY painted in Blue Gray was completed on 10 January 1941 at North Island, San Diego.  It is possible that the new scheme was recommended to PatWing 10 before April, but the new scheme was monochromatic, while the old green scheme called for a disruptive pattern.

 

Countering all of this are the memories of several vets, who claim that the aircraft wore multi-toned blues and grays - they may be right.  While my suspicions are that the greens still prevailed in the PI, there are many other combinations possible.  Good luck with your choices, and enjoy the build!

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

[stevehnz]

3 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

combination of yellow-greens and blue-greens,

 

3 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

While my suspicions are that the greens still prevailed in the PI

Any chance we can get a steer as to just which greens you are referring to here Dana? Obviously in the absence of better info it is up to the individual as to how they interpret these schemes but I'd love to have a lead as to the colours that could have been used?

Steve.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

4 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

From 1935 through 1940, the Navy's standard camouflage was a combination of yellow-greens and blue-greens, which certainly made sense for the Philippines.  The change to the single Blue Gray upper camouflage was made in December 1940 for the US Fleet, but this did not initially include the Asiatic Fleet, a separate command.  The first PBY painted in Blue Gray was completed on 10 January 1941 at North Island, San Diego. 

No data on camouflage, 32 PBY-4 built, 1 in May 1938, then 28 October 1938 to February 1939, the final 3 in April and May 1939, well within the pre war paint schemes.  PBY-5 production started in September 1940, over a year later, Catalina I and II production started in November 1940.  The amount of any British influence on USN aircraft camouflage is also unknown.

[Dana Bell]

Hi Steve,

 

I can give you an idea, but it won't be very helpful.  The colors were to be matched to the 1926 version of the Munsell charts.  As listed in the 1935 handbook of naval aircraft camouflage they were: 

 

BG-B 2/4    Blue Green  - the upper surface base color for all aircraft

GY-G 2/4    Yellow Green  - the disruptive color applied to 1/3 of upper surfaces on larger aircraft (such as the PBY)

PB 4/4    Purple Blue  - the countershading color applied to vertical surfaces

PB 6/2    Purple Blue  - the underside color

 

There are two problems with the "official" colors -- first, some of the aircraft show three shades (not two) on the upper surfaces, and second BuAer didn't order and supply the paint.  Local units were provided 4x4-inch paint chips and expected to mix their own paints.  This might partially account for wide variation in shades seen in most of the photos.

 

I wish I could offer more, but at least this is a start.  There are still some Asiatic Fleet records at the National Archives, but they've been closed since February, and I'm not sure when they'll reopen.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Pauly Boy]

 It looks like I've opened up a" can of worms" here! And yes Steve I'd forgotten that I asked this several years back. It show's how long I've been sitting on this project. Early Pacific campaigns are of great interest and as can be seen info not always easy. I'll probably go with "best guess" and enjoy the build!

 Thanks for everyone's efforts. Greatly appreciated!

  Paul

[HOUSTON]

Great info.

 

[stevehnz]

7 hours ago, Pauly Boy said:

It show's how long I've been sitting on this project

You & me both, though I think I't is lack of opportunity, both time & space that stops me working on this. I'll be interested to check out @Dana Bell's colour info & see if that might help out. Anything held in the US National Archives is likely to stay locked up for some time I feel.  Building the Academy kit using their colour calls is not the worst solution to this particular colour conundrum imho.

Steve.

[stevehnz]

Just because I could, I plugged the Academy colours into the FS595 section on colorserver.net & got this , the annotated colours on those instructions gave this. Not sure what they intended for an underside colour or whether it would have been repainted from the prewar Aluminum dope. (?)

[HOUSTON]

[occa]

Would be interesting to see google earth pics of and around the Philippines.
IMO likely the colors were adapted to the terrain respectively the sea in that area.