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Heller 199 - "AMX 30/105" ***FINISHED***


PeterB

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Oh what the heck - suppose I might as well throw the last of the Heller kits from my stash into the ring! As my "CV" states, my interests include a number of subjects and whilst planes were and still are my "first love" (after my family of course), I am rather fond of large lumps of metal on tracks, usually with a ruddy big gun - no comments about Phallic symbols please! So much so in fact that until recently I was a "Friend of the RAC Tank Museum" down in Bovington, but the combination of knackered knees and a 300+ mile round trip have made visits virtually impossible. When I was made redundant for the first time I was offered an FV432 tracked APV for £8K and was seriously tempted - great for getting around the hills and valleys in snow, but sadly lacking the large gun so I did not bother - probably as well as I am not sure how my local garage would have managed an MOT!

 

I bought my first tank kit whilst visiting relatives in Scotland in 1961 - the Airfix Sherman, and since then have built rather a lot. Though I have built a few in 1/35 my prefered scale is 1/76 but those of you familiar with Airfix tanks will know that they could not decide whether to build in 1/76 to match up with their model railway stuff, or 1/72 to match the planes so they did both. Also, if you wanted any post war tanks other than the Centurion, Scimitar, Chieftain, Sheridan and Leopard 1 which Airfix made, you usually ended up with 1/72 from Esci and the like. Of late I have discovered the excellent 1/76 resin kits from Millicast and was in the middle of building a batch of their British tanks for the Western Desert (A9, A10, A13, various Valentines and Crusaders plus the odd Grant , Stuart and Sherman ) when I discovered the Frog GB on BM 18 months ago and have since spent most of my time building planes, though I did manage the odd light cruiser (ship that is, not tank). They were put to one side and I have not build another AFV until a few  weeks ago for the Vietnam GB, so having got my hand back in as it were I thought I would have a shot at this. Now my "tank mojo" is switched back on I might even get the desert ones finished in the next KUTA!

 

DSC04048

According to Scalemates it was first released as Heller kit 199 in 1976 and has been re-boxed several times. This is one from much later, perhaps 2009, complete with a couple of capsules of paint, a brush and glue, or at least it should be if the previous owner had not nicked them, and according to Scalemates it should be numbered 49999 or 71234 but is actually 71221 as you can see on the box, and 79899 on the replacement parts slip so I am not 100% sure about the date. I have not had a good look at it yet so I will have to try and work out exactly which version of the AMX-30 it is supposed to represent - the title AMX 30/105 is rather meaningless as they all had a 105mm gun (at least the gun tanks, there were quite a few other versions), but various other things were changed, but I will tell you a little about the history in my next post, once I have done a bit of research. As a taster it includes, "les Allemands", politics, "Le General De Gaulle" and French "Élan" -  joking apart it was quite a good design in many respects. Those of you with a Naval bent might consider it a land equivalent of Jackie Fisher's battlecruisers - for everybody else I will explain that later!

 

More soon, and by the way, that strange colour of the plastic is actually a hint to what it will look like when finsihed.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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  • PeterB changed the title to Original Number 199 - "AMX 30/105"
  • PeterB changed the title to Heller 199 - "AMX 30/105"

I'm getting some Heller armour for Christmas if Santa comes up with the goods (let's put it this way, I ordered it online and handed the box to SWMBO for the purposes of wrapping.) I've never done a tank before (vaguely remember doing a Wehrmacht halftrack when I was a kid) so I'll be watching for some tips on this one! Enjoy! 😁

Edited by TonyOD
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Hi Charlie,

 

Yes in theory but I will be using mini staples and CA I would imagine.

 

Don't expect too much Tony - in some respects this is quite basic - for example although the turret does rotate, the gun mantlet is glued in place so there is no arrangement to allow it to move up and down. Some of the Airfix guns are friction fit as in the Sherman whilst others "click" into place eg Tiger, whilst other makes provide various forms of pivots and retaining pieces to glue in which is usually a fiddle and often ends up having glue accidentally smeared on them, thus defeating the object. The main problem with tanks is deciding what to paint before assembly. The suspension and track are not usually easy to get at after assembly, but on this kit they are yet again mostly a butt fit so need clean unpainted surfaces to glue! Painting the rubber tyres on the wheels is certainly best done beforehand, but giving the sprues a blast of primer from a rattle can be counter productive. I think I will make a start on painting the wheels unprimed and see how it goes.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

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I have put the plastic into a bath of water together with a denture bleach table to soak overnight - I find I am less likely to lose any small bits that way rather than washing in water with detergent. I will rinse it and let it dry tomorrow and then make a start. The instructions are not quite as bad as the ones for the T-59 I started to make and then abandoned in the Vietnam GB, but they could be better given the lack of locating holes, pips etc. The instructions say it should be painted in Humbrol Hu 86 Light Olive which seems to be close enough to the colour I have seen in the odd photo, but I have run out so I am waiting for an order to be delivered, hopefully by the end of the week. The instructions unusually start with the turret construction so that should be OK.

 

More as and when.

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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Great to see this one join the GB Pete, Best of luck

 

By the way there is actually a current KUTA GB running so looks like those old armoured kits of yours won't have to wait much longer for rescue !

 

cheers Pat

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That sneaked up on me Pat, I though it started next month! Anyway, whilst waiting for my "light olive" paint to arrive I have made a start.

DSC04050-crop

First I stuck the upper and lower halvers of the turret together before adding the commander's cupola lid, mantlet, barrel and the little end bit with the hole in - the barrel is wrapped in a thermal blanket which makes it look a lot thicker than it is.

 

Then I glued  the suspension arms on to the bottom of the hull, and the 10 idler wheels to the side, or perhaps I should say the 9 idler wheels as one rolled of my desk and I can't find it - not to worry, I have made up a replacement from rod and tube. I will finish off the turret and put various boxes etc on the hull, but then I am a bit stuck until the paint gets here,

 

I suspect that like me, many of you don't just build planes, but also have an interest in tanks and/or ships, but for those who don't I thought a brief and massively over-simplified background on tank development might be useful in understanding how the AMX 30 was designed as it went against some of the “normal” concepts of the period - everybody else should probably skip this!

 

Shortly after the start of WWI both the British and French found themselves faced with the problem of fighting trench warfare against a combination of heavily shelled battlefields covered with barbed wire and dominated by machine guns, often emplaced in concrete bunkers, and both independently developed the concept of what came to be called “Tanks” - a name initially used to try and disguise their purpose from German spies, which stuck, although the French preferred “Char de Combat” or “Blindés”. The end product was a heavy, slow machine designed to be bullet-proof and capable of crushing barbed wire and shooting up infantry and pillboxes. By the start of WWII this had developed into 3 different classes of machine.

 

Light Tanks - small lightly armoured machines for recce purposes and shooting up infantry and soft skinned transports, they were fast and usually armed with machine guns and/or a light cannon.

 

Heavy or Infantry Tanks, designed to accompany infantry. They were quite heavily armoured and therefore slow, and were armed with machine guns and sometimes a short howitzer type gun. Some also had a gun designed for use against other tanks, for example the Char B1.

 

Medium tanks which fell in between the other 2 classes, they were faster than the heavies and better armoured than the lights and usually had a gun which could be used against other tanks, eg the German 37mm and the British 2 pdr. They were intended to break through enemy lines and cause havoc in the rear.

 

The German Panzers II,III, and IV were good examples of Light, Medium and Heavy - the Panzer I was meant just to be a training machine I believe, but had to used initially as the war started rather earlier than the Wermacht expected,

 

The classes were not as clear cut as it may seem – like warships of the period they were always a compromise between speed, armour and armament. Heavy armour and big guns made them slower usually, and as guns and ammunition developed, each side had to keep increasing the thickness of their armour and then fit more powerful guns. By the end of the war the Heavy Tank was going out of favour as they increasingly found themselves having to fight other tanks, and instead the Medium – Cruiser to the Brits – was developing into what we now call a “Main Battle Tank” or MBT for short. Amongst the first of these was the Centurion, together with the US “Patton” series and the Soviet T-54/55.

 

I mentioned ammunition earlier and in many ways this was just as important as the gun itself. The British 40mm AP round for the 2pdr gun was just a solid lump of metal intended to blast through armour and send fragments bouncing around inside, killing the crew and hopefully causing a fire from leaking fuel or exploding ammunition. The Americans preferred shells with a small HE content which would actually explode inside. During WWII new types developed to combat the ever increasing thickness of the armour on German Panzers, resulting in the APDS, and HEAT rounds – the first using a “Discarding Sabot” to project a small hard metal core (tungsten usually) at very high velocity, whilst the latter used the so called “Monroe Effect” to place a High Explosive AT round up against the armour where it produced a jet of white hot metal and gas to burn through the armour and anything else that got in the way. Both types had their problems but were extremely effective when they worked.

 

So, having got that off my chest, next time I will tell you about the AMX 30!

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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This kit seems to be another bit of a mxed bag - general good but with some strange and at times lazy work by Heller. First off there is a strange part labelled 26 which does not seem to be anywhere on the instructions, and then there is what looks at first sight like spare track moulded on one side of the body. Closer inspection shows that it is totally the wrong shape and size, and I wonder if it was meant to be what the Brits called "Spuds" - extensions that could be bolted onto the track every so often to improve the grip on soft ground. They were by all accounts tedious to fit and remove and prone to tearing off, and I have not heard of them being used on post WWII tanks. In any case Heller show the "heated screwdriver" image next to them so guessing they want them removing I have obliged. There are the usual moulded on tools, far too small and anaemic but they will have to do as I have run out of spares, and finally there are 4 square section "L" shaped things that apparently go on the rear of the turret. I suspect these are smoke mortars and will see if I can improve the shape with a bit of plastic tube.

 

On the plus side I have found an old tin of Hu86 enamel which still works so I have started painting the wheels etc. With luck I should have this done by the weekend - please note I did not say which weekend!

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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I’ll be interested to see what you do. I picked up a cheap one just recently but I’m wondering what to do about the turret basket and tracks. There is an aftermarket set that would treble the price of the kit...

 

Regards,

Adrian

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Hi Adrian,

 

The kit tracks are a bit basic - thick, with no detail on the "inside"  and the "track pattern"is totally wrong. Also, although I washed and primed them the paint is showing signs of peeling off. One of the features of the AMX 30 and many other tanks is metal stowage baskets on the turret sides and although Heller show them on the box art they do not include them in the kit. It would be possible to knock some up with wire/plastic rod I suppose and you seem to be far better at that sort of thing than I am.

 

So AM tracks and baskets would certainly improve the look of it if they work, but whether they are worth the expense only you can decide. This is a typical 1970's tank kit - basic and would benefit from a bit of work, but I have not been able to find much detailed info though I am sure I have something buried somewhere in my files. As with the T-54 and M113 I built for the Vietnam GB, I will add the easy stuff like aerials, gun mantlet dust cover etc, and maybe a bit of stowage, but without the baskets that will be minimal.

 

Whilst writing this I remembered I have a scale plan in one of my series of books by George Bradford, and it seems the "spare track" on the hull was in fact correct but of course looks nothing like the rubber band track on the kit - maybe I should have left it on after all! The baskets are pretty complicated so I will definitely not bother, but let me know if you want a copy of the plan so you can have a shot at scratch building them.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

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For anybody wondering what an earth Adrian and I are on about.

30-crop

You can see the stowage baskets in the above - that is the later B2 version with a 20mm cannon replacing the coaxial 12.7mm mg and with the IR searchlight on the right not the left. This is what the kit looks like at the moment with all the turret and hull bits on.

DSC04055-crop

The "ears" sticking out near the front of the turret are the ends of the optical rangefinder and the tubes at the back are the smoke discharging mortars. Modern tanks have a lot more, set to fire normal smoke, IR decoys and a special smoke that can briefly blind Laser sights. They are use to help "hide" the tank, particularly if it wants to retreat. The tracks are the old "join with a heated blade" type and the are pretty awful in terms of tread pattern and lack of detail on the inside face. I have glued them and used a mini stapler to reinforce the joint.

 

So, on with the story.

My info on the post war French tanks is rather limited so a lot of what follows is from Wiki and may not be entirely correct – feel free to correct or add anything!

 

As WWII drew to a close, the only “modern” tank on the drawing board in France was the ARL 44, which was in many ways an updated Char B1bis with a long narrow hull and outdated suspension and tracks. Only a relatively small number were built and for some time the French Armoured Divisions relied on refurbished German Panthers and American tanks. Design work immediately started on a home grown replacement though the influence of both the Panther and Tiger was to become something of a problem. The first attempt was to become the AMX 50 from the established tank makers Ateliers de construction d'Issy-les-Moulineaux aka AMX, which was initially intended to be a fast and mobile tank in the 30 ton range, but ended up weighing over 50 tons. It had vertical side armour as in the Tiger, and a modified Panther suspension and transmission, powered by a German Maybach engine as used in German tanks. To try and keep the weight and size down it used an oscillating turret similar to the one fitted to the successful AMX 13 light tank. Unfortunately the turret proved difficult to waterproof for deep wading and was not able to stop radiation or chemical/germ weapons getting in, and the engine was unreliable and seldom if ever developed full power, so it was dropped in 1952 when the US provided France with  M 47 tanks.

 

In 1956 France, West Germany and Italy decided to build a common tank design, with both France and Germany developing prototypes to be tested against each other - the AMX 30 and the Leopard. Both decide not to follow the UK in going for maximum armour with inevitable low speed, deciding instead to rely on speed and agility to make up for thinner and therefore lighter protection, hence my comment earlier about Jackie Fisher and his Battlecruisers. However there were perhaps inevitably differences of opinion, the most noteable one being about the main gun. Centuries ago somebody realised that by offsetting the feathers on the tail, an arrow could be made to spin and thus become more accurate, and in the middle of the 15th Century the same principle began to be applied to firearms in the form of rifling, example below of a cutaway British L7 105mm tank gun.

330px-105mm_tank_gun_Rifling

Unfortunately, towards the end of WWII it was discovered that APDS ammo was prone to wobble as it spun, losing some accuracy, but that was remedied by adding retractable Stabilising Fins to produce APFSDS, but the French preferred HEAT ammo, and that really did not like being spun. They therefore developed a rather clever round called OBUS G which encased the round in an outer sleeve with ball bearings in between, so that the outer case spun normally in the rifling but the inner round tended not to. To use that they designed a new 105mm gun. The Germans however much preferred to use off the shelf ammo fired from the excellent British L7 105mm gun, and so when Charles De Gaulle came to power and, according to Wiki, annoyed them by refusing to give them French Nuclear weapons they lost interest in the project and pressed on with the Leopard, leaving the French to develop the AMX 30 on their own.

 

Next time I will close by describing the various versions of the AMX 30.

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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The running gear is on and painted.

DSC04066-crop

Believe it or not there are just 4 parts left on the sprue - the rear hull, two Jerry Cans to go on it, and the bit I mentioned earier which does not seem to belong anywhere! Hopefully the replacement paint will turn up soon as the enamel is going lumpy. In the meantime I will finish the story.

 

The AMX 30 entered full production in 1966 and was known as the 30B to distinguish from the pre-production models which became the 30A. It is one of the narrowest MBT in existence at 3.1m which makes transport by rail easier, and has the thinnest armour of all its contemporaries except the Leopard 1. The armour is well sloped – 20° at the sides and 70° on the glacis plate ie the front hull – sloping armour not only makes incoming shells more prone to bounce off but in effect increases the thickness compared with an equivalent plate mounted vertically. The heavier the armour the more power needed to move it and the more fuel used. It also has an adverse effect on performance off road as the tracks dig in more. By going for a lighter tank the French got a top speed of 40mph, faster by a considerable margin than any other tank at the time except the Leopard1, and much better range.

 

At 2.28m to the top of the roof, it also had the lowest height with the exception of the T-54, which, coupled with the high speed would theoretically make it harder to hit, and also helps when dug in to a hull down position. The American tanks of the time were much taller and also had very large cupolas on top of the turret as you will see when I post a comparison pic later – one of the first things the Israelis did when they acquired US M-48 and M-60 tanks was to remove the cupola and replace it with a much shallower one! Initially it was powered by a petrol engine as NATO thinking at the time was that diesel could be in short supply, but later it was replaced by a “multi fuel” engine, ie a diesel which could run on a range of fuels if adjusted. - it was a faulty attempt to make such an engine that crippled the British Chieftain until a replacement was fitted!. As originally built it had a 12.7mm coaxial mg alongside the main 105mm gun, and a further 7.62mm mg on the commander's cupola for AA use. Later, in the early 1970's it was upgraded to include gun stabilization, better fire control with a laser sight, and the co-axial gun was replaced with a 20mm cannon which could be elevated independently, for use against soft skinned targets and helicopters – this was the AMX 30B2. The French call the AMX 30 a “Char de Bataille” or Battle Tank as distinct to the normal NATO “Main Battle Tank”or MBT. A limited number of B2 tanks were fitted with “Brennus” reactive block armour which explodes when hit and disrupts the penetration effect of incoming shells.

 

The AMX 30B was eventually replaced by the modern Le Clerc MBT, but may still be in service with French in the various other versions which the chassis was used for – recovery vehicle, AA tank, Self Propelled artillery, Bridge Layer and the Pluton missile carrier. Considerable numbers of the basic gun tank were exported in numerous versions and some still remain active.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

Later -a warning to anybody making this or any other kit with the flexible "vinyl" tracks - do not use acrylic paint on the tracks as it just peels off! I don't recall having this problem back in the days I used enamel paints for everything.

 

 

Edited by PeterB
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Over the years I have built a lot of tank kits, many of the same generation as this one, and in my experience there are two potential problem areas. The first is gluing together the various hull parts. This one has five – top, bottom, two sides and a rear, and you have to glue the last four together whilst checking that it will mate up with the top when dry, which sometime seems to require two pairs of hands!. Anyway I managed that without too many problems and the fir is not bad, though it will probably need a little filler.

DSC04068-crop

The hull is jus a push fit here to keep everything aligned.

The second potential problem area is fitting the tracks. Usually this type of track is either about right or too tight, and in the latter case you have to stretch it which risks tearing the joint apart or breaking off some of the wheels. However this is one of the rare cases where the track is actually too long and would not sit properly without being shortened a little. OK, my fault for not checking, but it is so rare that I never thought of it. I have taken it apart, shortened it by about 3mm and joined it back together. Still not quite right but near enough. 

DSC04070-crop

The hull is now glued on, and yes I know I said I would not bother with turret baskets but it looked awfully bare! The plans I have are for the B2 version which has a modifed turret with for example no optical rangefinder heads sticking out. I have shortened the baskets a bit, and the vertical plastic strips are a bit wide, and there should be more of them, but it is better than nothing and will be less obvious once painted. Probably would have been better to used stretched sprue instead - no doubt Adrian will make a better job if he bothers. The horizontal rails are OO gauge loco handrail wire.

 

Bit of filling and tidying up to do and then I will think about stowage. Hopefully the paint will arrive on Friday. One small correction to a previous post - there are actually 5 decals not 4!

 

Cheers

 

Pete

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The kit is finished and has joined the queue for a coat of matt varnish.

DSC04076-crop

The track is a poor fit, due in part to it being very thick and stiff, and the wheels are not as level as I thought they were but I am not going to do anything more with it. I have added aerials and some token stowage. If you see this Adrian, yes it could benefit from replacement track!

 

Earlier, when describing the AMX-30B, I said I would let you see how it compared with its contemporaries, so here are a couple of pics. One thing to be aware of is that the Airfix kits are in this case supposedly 1/76 scale whilst everything else are 1/72. In theory that should mean that the 1/72 ones are about 4mm longer and 2mm wider and taller, but that assumes that they accurate in the first place. When Airfix released their kit of the Crusader tank many years ago they claimed it was one of their 1/72 scale ones, but measurements showed that although the width was pretty much bang on, it was at least 6mm too long for 1.72 and therefore 1cm longer than the 1/76 ones I have. It also meant that it looked longer and narrower that the real thing actually was.

 

Right, the first pic shows the AMX 30B with the Airfix “Leopard” now called Leopard I to the left and the PST T-54A to the right – I seem to have lost the box for the IR searchlight mounted over the Leopard's gun. As I said in my rant the AMX is supposed to be lower than any other contemporary tank than the T-54 but that is only measuring to the roof of the turret, not the rather tall cupola, That certainly seems to be the case with my T-54 but even allowing for the scale difference the Airfix Leopard is lower though that may in part be due to the fact that the tracks have wasted away. I suspect Airfix may have got it wrong again.

 

DSC04072-crop

 

The second pic shows the AMX between the US M-48 (Esci I think) and the old Airfix Centurion, and again it is clearly lower than the M-48 but a close run thing with the 1/76 Centurion.

 

DSC04074-crop

In fact, looking at the pics I will have to check both the Airfix kits against my references as they look rather small to me!

Nearly finished.

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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Well that was a nice quick build, if a little crude in terms of the tracks.

DSC04100-crop

I will post a couple more pics in the Gallery, and then press on with my 2 remaining kits in this GB.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

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  • PeterB changed the title to Heller 199 - "AMX 30/105" ***FINISHED***

That looks great. I've never done armour but I have this, the 13 and the Sherman in the stash. I wonder if aftermarket tracks are available?

Edited by TonyOD
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Hi Tony,

 

Adrian said earlier he had found some AM tracks and turret baskets - presumable etch, but it sounds like they were not cheap. Might be worth asking him where he found them as the kit tracks are a bit of a dog. Alternatively OKB Grigarov lists early AMX-30 tracks for about 9 Euro's plus postage and his resin ones are usually pretty good - link here. http://shop.okbgrigorov.com/product/285/1-72-tracks-for-amx-30-early.html He even includes proper drive sprockets with teeth! He has a decent range and might have something for your other kits which could save on postage. The resin can be bent easily in hot water though he told me that they probably would bend without it as his resin is 'not that cheap nasty Russian' stuff - not sure what he was referring to.  If I were doing this kit again I would certainly  buy some from him.

 

Good luck.

 

Pete

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