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1/32 Phantom FGR.2 - best starting point?


WV908

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Hi all,

 I'm wanting to build a Phantom FGR.2 in 1/32 and would like to know what is the better starting point for the fuselage mods between the Tamiya F-4J and the Revell F-4F.

 

I have read that the Revell kit is better suited to the conversion and I would have to do a cockpit transplant between the two, but does anyone know why the Revell is supposedly better suited please?

 

Cheers,

  WV908 

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Sounds quite strange, considering that the FGR.2 is sure more similar to the J.

Wonder if it's because of the way Tamiya moulded the upper fuselage as a single piace? The Revell kit has a more traditional left/right half fuselage assembly.

Using the Revell kit however would mean having to scratchbuild a lot of other parts that Tamiya already gives in the F-4J kit. The Tamiya kit is also generally more accurate than the Revell one. Of course there's also a large price difference between the two...

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Hi Giorgio,

  It would just be a matter of swapping the various parts over between the two kits as I have one of each in the stash. I actually got the Tamiya kit for less than the Revell so I'm not really worried about cutting either up.

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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Well I built one using a Revell F-4F. I did it purely for reasons of economy as I had picked several up when Wonderland had them on sale at around £19.00 each. I used a resin nose cone from D J Parkins and some resin wheels for an F-4J as the F-4F ones are different.

 

Here it is unpainted

resized_bb59a5d4-9b80-4b34-b90f-62a5c2ae

 

And now painted

resized_d49e450a-0d63-4463-bb7c-e237efca

 

So my advice would be to use the Revell kit to make the F-4M and use the F-4J to make an F-4J(UK).

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I fully understand the cost factoring, and at £19 I'd have bought a load myself. Apart from this however, the nose of the F is different from the windscreen on and this also affects the perceived shape of the windscreen.  Granted, since such a conversion involves major surgery anyway, modifying the nose would be just one more job, but starting from the Tamiya kit would avoid this

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Hmmm, interesting question and not an easy answer.

 

Cees, as I am sure you are aware on LSM started with the Tamiya 'J' and ended up using much of the Revell kit.

 

The reason being the Revell kit captures the look of the more rounded fuselage sides at the reheat can area than the flat sides on the Tamiya kit.  Also it appears that the intakes are slightly wider on the Revell kit, making them almost correct in width.  Well, better than the Taniya ones, so it might be easier to modify.  Careful with intake width openings as there are some measurements that would indicate them being wider than they actually were.  You will still need to modify the lower fuse as the gap between the engines is smaller with Speys fitted.

 

I am building a 1/32 Toom over on LSP and am getting close to the intakes...this is a minefield of sizes and shapes, and one has to take into account if the vari ramps are partially opened as it might affect your sizings. Thankfully though Frank Mitchell took into account the shape differences on the flanks of the engine area.  But I think should be easy enough to modify.

 

I would probably start with Tamiya and splice in the Revell bits??

 

Take a look at both builds and see whats going on.  I am more than happy to help you where I can...just ask.  My thread on LSP is uncovering lots of differences between the 2.

 

Cheers

Anthony

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Ooh there's 1/32 Spey burners on Shapeways! Pricey but i'll order a set in the new year. I think I'll follow Cees's method in bashing the Revell and Tamiya kits together and use the leftovers to build a Luftwaffe 'F'.

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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Good tips/advice so far...here's a nice conversion build on Britmodeller by @HL-10

 

Also, is there any chance of the rumoured HK Models version making it to market while I still have my health/eyesight 😂

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1 hour ago, Anthony in NZ said:

The reason being the Revell kit captures the look of the more rounded fuselage sides at the reheat can area than the flat sides on the Tamiya kit.

Interesting, as I thought the F-K/M had flatter rear fuselage flanks due to major modifications in that area that moved the engines and structure downwards.

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5 hours ago, WV908 said:

What did you do for the engines?

I used a pair of exhausts from the Revell 1/32 F-14A, but not the actual exhausts bujustt the part inside the fuselage. These were reversed, cut to length and the ends removed then details added.

 

My Work in progress is here.

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The Tamiya kit has almost " a box like" rear fuselage. It is very bad even for F-4B, F-4C or F-4J. It certainly needs plasticard attached onto the inner surfaces so, that you can sand it into shape. Somehow it seems to be a "common knowledge" that Tamiya got the nose shape (radome) wrong when it is actually very accurate. The outer wing panels too great dihedral; it should be only 10 degrees.

 

Tamiya kit has much better canopies than the Revell offering; especially if you wish to present your model with closed canopies.

 

You might want to check LSP forums as there are photos and measurements of the intakes. Do not widen them before you check the measurements. The cross section of the funnel is greater than in F-4J (and it is more curved also because the engine sits at different angle) but the intake itself is almost similar in size with F-4J. Check also photos taken from the side showing the correct side profile as it is different in British Phantoms.

 

And Anthony has studied the subject closely as he is building one as we speak.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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This is the area I'm referring to about the flattish flanks, just aft of the wing, starting from above the wing line and extending to the underside.  These are are somewhat extended over a standard phantom and it looks like the extension was basically flat.  I have better pictures to illustrate it but need to upload.   

32738565217_64a2b775da_h.jpg

McDonnell Douglas Phantom FG.1 XV582 M by James Thomas, on Flickr

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At 19 quid, these Revells were an absolute bargain! They are selling on E-bay for £60+ at the moment.  I know they have some major shape issues, but I'm not the type of modeller who tends to worry about such matters. 

 

Chris. 

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7 hours ago, 71chally said:

This is the area I'm referring to about the flattish flanks, just aft of the wing, starting from above the wing line and extending to the underside.  These are are somewhat extended over a standard phantom and it looks like the extension was basically flat.  I have better pictures to illustrate it but need to upload.   

32738565217_64a2b775da_h.jpg

McDonnell Douglas Phantom FG.1 XV582 M by James Thomas, on Flickr

That's a great photo!  I love how the light runs down the line of the fuse, you can see clearly how rounded the sides are...is this the area you were referring to?

This is what I was referring to, I think I might have got it wrong.  See how flat the sides on the Tamiya kit are compared to the actual airframe...

1wrGVN.jpg

Frank corrected this somewhat when he modified the back end for the Speys and changed the profile down the side (mostly).  I have yet to look at the contours around the area just above and forward of the reheat can area.  I suspect there might need to be some more sanding in this area to do to flatten the curve off a bit, but I havent worked on this area yet and made any templates up. I will report back when I get to it.

 

Cheers Anthony

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Even though Frank got the diameter correct at the reheat can area on the fuse, the kit still goes somewhat flat again.  See line 'B'

 

Also I think I still need to address this area (possibly) in the circle 'B' as it may need flattening out.  But I havent got to this area yet, I am just finishing off the fin so I can tackle the intakes next...then this section

CVlcfX.jpg

 

Hope this is of some interest? I am still trying to figure it all out too.

 

Cheers Anthony

 

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Anthony,

 

the curvature should go further down along the fuselage side, as the re-heater cans are larger. So at B the shape might be quite right but just behind that the fuselage is again more rounded (and slightly wider) because of the jet pipes.

 

The photo James posted also suggests that the sides of the fuselage are slightly rounded (thanks to wider intake funnels) than in F-4J which has flat sides on mid-fuselage. Look at the panel line in James' photo just behind the fire panel (red frame). The "new" Airfix 1/72 scale kit shows this shape as well.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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8 hours ago, Antti_K said:

Anthony,

 

the curvature should go further down along the fuselage side, as the re-heater cans are larger. So at B the shape might be quite right but just behind that the fuselage is again more rounded (and slightly wider) because of the jet pipes.

 

The photo James posted also suggests that the sides of the fuselage are slightly rounded (thanks to wider intake funnels) than in F-4J which has flat sides on mid-fuselage. Look at the panel line in James' photo just behind the fire panel (red frame). The "new" Airfix 1/72 scale kit shows this shape as well.

 

Cheers,

Antti

Thanks Antti, yes I agree.  I really need to study this area more when I get to it.  Appreciate your input!

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Hi all,

  I'd like to thank everyone for their help so far - the info regarding the shape of the rear fuselages on both the Tamiya and Revell kits is enlightening.

 

I've decided my route for the conversion, although the finer points and one major (Intake trunking) are yet to be decided. I'll be converting the Revell kit into an FGR.2, cutting the nose off just forward of the intakes, or at the same place as Cees has and will mount the Tamiya cockpit on that. 

 

I've ordered the excellent LSM Spey burners from Shapeways so won't do any cutting until they arrive.

 

The fuselage stations drawings from @canberra kid are going to be invaluable for this project so I'll scale those drawings and produce negative templates from them. 

 

The plan at present is to build this as XV408. I may have a source of decals but if not I'll draw them up myself.

 

The leftovers from both kits will be bashed into an F-4E or F-4F. Either option is for a 'late' Toom so I'm looking at HHA's F at Scampton or one of the Hellenic E's I saw fly at RIAT in 2017.

 

I'll keep everyone posted on how it goes and will muddle on with my 1/32 Tornado F3 in the background. I was working on the Lanc but that has stalled as i'm still figuring out how to do the dual control cockpit of PA474 justice.

 

Cheers,

  WV908

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