HMS Hood revelations

[iang]

Builder's model of Indomitable, Fleet Air Arm Museum.

 

I'm looking forward to your article.

[junglierating]

6 hours ago, iang said:

On the subject of the bottom hull colour of other RN warships, I had, in the past, wondered about this builder's model:

 

 

In the light of these revelations concerning Hood,  I shall check the Ship's Book at TNA

 

 

FAAM?

[europapete]

That will be a great help, thank you. Regards, Pete in RI

[iang]

1 hour ago, junglierating said:

FAAM?

Now in store, I believe

[michaele]

All:

Alan Raven asked me to post this on the board in response to Jamie's artwork re: HMS Hood.

During Hood's 1940 refit, the corticene covering her shelter/boat deck was removed and replaced by a layer of semtex (with the exception perhaps of some of the bridge decks which retained their corticene covering). He doesn't have info regarding the precise pattern of the semtex runs on the deck, however.

He also plans to send me some artwork for HMS Berwick in her Berwick Blue scheme and one of the Colossus class carriers which wore a four colour scheme which included the color B40, which I will post. Details to follow.

Wishing you all health!

Best,

Mike E.

[dickrd]

For those interested,  Frank Allen has posted the obvious response to Raven's suggestion over on the Modelwarships Forum CASF HMS Hood thread and EJ Foeth has explained the relevant evidence in detail

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

22 hours ago, dickrd said:

For those interested,  Frank Allen has posted the obvious response to Raven's suggestion over on the Modelwarships Forum CASF HMS Hood thread and EJ Foeth has explained the relevant evidence in detail

 

Knowing the large differences in motivation from one person to the next, I'll quote Frank here:

 

With all due respect to Mr R (and we do indeed respect his knowledge), we ourselves have so far seen no reference to that in the Hood’s cover or her ships books, plus we have photos from 1940 and 1941 which still show panels and strips where corticene was known to be before. If he can please cite a contemporary official source that verifies such work was actually carried out, it would be very helpful (i.e., which part/section of the ship’s books, etc.). It’s possible we could’ve overlooked or otherwise not gotten to something. Otherwise, we have to go by what photos show.

As for Semtex, the only verifiable record we’ve come across so far is a Dec 1937 mention of it being applied under the new 4” guns. There is a later mention of renewal of corticene on the boat deck (38). Again, it would be very helpful if he could provide a verifiable contemporary source for us to consult so that we may be as precise as possible.

 

Second last post of Page 39: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4702&start=760

[foeth]

On 11/23/2020 at 12:20 AM, michaele said:

During Hood's 1940 refit, the corticene covering her shelter/boat deck was removed and replaced by a layer of semtex (with the exception perhaps of some of the bridge decks which retained their corticene covering). He doesn't have info regarding the precise pattern of the semtex runs on the deck, however.

 The date should be 1937, and the comment regarding the pattern does not conflict with our observation that Corticine was only locally replaced.

 

Footage of the decks of the superstructure are quite rare, however

 

1) Admiral's signal platform: the first deck level certainly had corticine up to 1939 (shown in a colour movie).

2) Conning tower level: corticine from the date of commission, and strips are observed near the Vickers quad machine guns.

3) Admiral's bridge: only a few glancing shots show faint evidence of holding strips, no pics after the platform was extended. So, quite likely, no evidence for 1940/41.

4) Higher up: no footage.

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

With Semtex being a brand name as is Corticene*, I'm concerned again that it's surely named somewhere official in order to being able to quote which brand of "stuff" was used. As noted by Frank, there is an entry naming Semtex specifically but in reference to the locality around 4" mounts.

 

When people talk about Semtex as a generic term, I find myself wondering where the information actually originates. Particularly when it's relatively early in the war. Semtex wasn't the only company-specific proprietary product name in use.

 

 

 

 

* as a total change of subject, the word "linoleum" was also a proprietary brand name given by the inventor of the product. It was so widely plagiarised including by copy-cat competitors like Corticene than when the Linoleum owner/inventor went to try to take legal action, he was told it was now so widely used as to be a generic name. Linoleum is one of the earliest documented cases of a product name being plagiarised to the point of being legally deemed to be generic under the subject of copyright law.

[foeth]

Dickrd already wondered if the terms Semtex, Aranbee or Supertex were used in the logs, but it is simply "Semtex" with no other information.

 

I found several references to the Corticine Floor Company or the Corticine Company, but admiralty records spell corticene. My volumes Shipyard practice as applied to warship construction (McDermaid, 1911) and Practical construction of warships (Newton,1941) spell corticine and corticene, respectively. If you search using both terms you'll even find documents using both (on the same page, no less).

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by foeth

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Fascinating stuff [though I admit to a slight sinking feeling about my assumptions re Ark’s below-water colour scheme].  On the topic of trade names, it took me a fair while to realise that Cerrux Grey (as in inter-War FAA schemes) was a trade name a la Corticene/Corticine, Baekelite, Linoleum, Semtex, Biro, Hoover...

 

P.S. the RN habit of experimenting / adapting to find the best anti-fouling was not confined to the Hood era.  At the time of the Falklands War, Exeter had bright blue boot topping (she was brand new and they were testing a commercial anti-fouling paint which was only available in that colour - they said if it worked they’d invest the money to get the manufacturers to do it in black, but I don’t know whether it was a success or not)... and Ark 5 had distinctive grey boot topping when she commissioned, though it had already been repainted black by the time I joined her 18 months later.

[dickrd]

5 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Fascinating stuff [though I admit to a slight sinking feeling about my assumptions re Ark’s below-water colour scheme].  

 

 

 

I was wondering when to mention this question to you! As it happens WW2 Ark Royal's Ship's Book does survive at The National Archives so with luck her docking forms D 495 will be available and with even more luck will mention the make and maybe colour of her anti-fouling. Once Covid dies down a bit I will be going there again to consult the D495s for a range of ships and will look out Ark Royal's for you unless someone has done so in the meantime. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by dickrd

[iang]

Yes, when Covid infection rates allow, I have a little list:

 

Hermes (1919)

Ark Royal (1937)

Indomitable (1940)

Implacable (1942)

Glory (1943).

Indefatigable (1944)

 

It's a great shame that Glorious and Furious' Ship's Books do not survive, but given there are only around 50 RN Ship's Books extant at TNA from the first half of the c.20, the group above is not too bad.

 

[dickrd]

Jamie has kindly uploaded my little paper on RN ships' bottoms to his site where it can be found here:

 

Royal Navy Anti-fouling and Boot Topping Colours– Sovereign Hobbies

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by dickrd

[robgizlu]

30 minutes ago, dickrd said:

Jamie has kindly uploaded my little paper on RN ships' bottoms to his site where it can be found here:

 

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/british-royal-navy-colour-schemes

 

Thank you Dick - Much appreciated!

Rob

[Chewbacca]

On 28/11/2020 at 11:46, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Ark 5 had distinctive grey boot topping when she commissioned,

BRAVE was the same.  Grey when commissioned in 86 but black a couple of years later

[Iceman 29]

A colour film about the Hood in the fleet which has not been retouched, we can hardly see the Boot topping of the "submarine" .

On the other hand, it is interesting to watch the other ships next to her at sea at anti-fouling level.

 

Some captures of the video:

 

 

 

 

[Terry1954]

What a fascinating and enlightening thread. @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies, your website contains a growing and very helpful set of information for us all, gathered by you and other folk with great knowledge on the subject of RN Warship colour schemes.

 

Some of it seems to be myth busting and the one that fascinates me the most in that regard, is the revelation that 30's era China station colours were most likely not the buff upper works that some have come to take for granted, thereby rendering a number of superbly made models, illustrations and even some works of art that I have seen in this scheme over many years, a "tad inaccurate" I guess. 

 

This is one of the most enjoyable parts of the hobby for me, the deeper analysis into colour and detail, and the discovery of things that change what we once accepted as being correct portrayals of the objects we model.

 

Terry

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

3 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

Some of it seems to be myth busting and the one that fascinates me the most in that regard, is the revelation that 30's era China station colours were most likely not the buff upper works that some have come to take for granted, thereby rendering a number of superbly made models, illustrations and even some works of art that I have seen in this scheme over many years, a "tad inaccurate" I guess. 

 

Hi Terry, this one is a subject I have chatted about with Richard over the phone once or twice. As with many errors it's often difficult to point the finger with certainty and say "it was his fault". There are a couple of possibilities which spring to mind. The old Airfix HMS Suffolk original boxing has been suggested as a possible offending originating source of the China Station myth but the memory plays tricks:

 

It's not wrong - it just doesn't show China Station colours. With a white hull and primrose yellow masts and funnels it's East Indies Station!

 

How we got to the place whereby B&W images of cruisers with white hulls and darker upperworks may have been a simple extrapolation of accepted information from East Indies station - i.e. they just said "more of that yellowish stuff". This may have even seemed credible since the American Great White Fleet was painted thus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia-class_cruiser#/media/File:USS_Olympia_2.jpg

 

I've seen a couple of snide remarks directed at me on social media about China Stations since, as well as less snide scepticism. Ultimately, this is like any other topic in life. As humans we will constantly be faced with conflicting information and the trick is always to be able to set the ideas and our bias aside and consider the sources of the information. It's fairly rare that the two conflicting sources will have equal credibility or provenance. I'm not a gambling man by any means, but to borrow a simile from that activity, this is about choosing to back the right horse.

[Terry1954]

4 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

The old Airfix HMS Suffolk original boxing is often blamed as an originating source but the memory plays tricks:

That's weird, as when I was writing my response initially above, I was tempted to quote the model of HMS Suffolk I was bought as a young lad, convinced in my minds eye it had all buff upperworks, but I checked good old Scalemates and of course it did not ....... I think the many other actual models I have since seen "in the flesh, so they must be right", had convinced me up until very recently, the China Station scheme was the correct one. At least, I felt no other reason to consider it might be incorrect.

 

Your last para above rings true to my heart. Keeping an open mind and considering new information or alternate views has led me through life well. Unless of course it's regarding an issue that I know I am right about.....! 

 

I think I'm backing the same horse as you!

 

Terry

 

 

[Chewbacca]

I'm tempted to say it goes back further than the Airfix SUFFOLK.  I converted that kit to represent an early DORSETSHIRE in Hong Kong harbour a few years ago and took my colour scheme from what was supposedly a contemporaneous painting which showed white hull and all yellow upperworks.  It's a shame, because its one of my better models but I'm embarrassed to show it at local model shows because I know the colour scheme is wrong (both for the China Station and East Indies!)

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Following a very helpful Word document with marked-up revisions from Frank Allen of the HMS Hood Association and an equally helpful video chat with @foeth, I have completed Revision 4a. Who knew drawing pictures could be this tough?

This one has lots of minor corrections most probably won't notice but I believe/hope that the aforementioned gentlemen are reasonably comfortable with how she looks, at least to the best of the information currently available.

 

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

I doubt I will ever get round to building a Hood (too many carriers ahead in the queue!), but it’s still fascinating & inspiring research.

 

Are you planning to add an “Anti-Fouling Grey” to NARN?

 

 

 

 

[When are you doing Ark Royal?]

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

10 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I doubt I will ever get round to building a Hood (too many carriers ahead in the queue!), but it’s still fascinating & inspiring research.

 

Are you planning to add an “Anti-Fouling Grey” to NARN?

 

[When are you doing Ark Royal?]

 

Hi Crispin,

 

1) Thank you

 

2) I may kick that back and forth with Richard a bit and see what he thinks. On one hand I'm thinking "it would only be a guess" based upon the various builders' models and older models generally which show grey:

 

 

 

 

 

As seen, some of the greys are slate-ish whilst others are more neutral or bluish. We would at best be interpreting although possibly we'd be in a better position to guesstimate than most. Rather than release a specific anti-fouling grey which people would assume I'd put my bullish assertion of robust underpinnings behind (which I couldn't) we could suggest some shades from the overall rather ample range which might look the part. I realise that's a bit of a cop-out but it's the same reason why some of my competitors have a Semtex coloured paint and I don't - put simply I know enough to lack confidence in anything I claimed was a good portrayal of Semtex. 

 

3) HMS Ark Royal will be a bit of a tough customer as you're finding out with your model, and her paint shouldn't be tooooo contentious for most I would hope. I do have a bit of an ambition to illustrate the Illustrious class in their various camouflage schemes, but I'd also like to complete Repulse first, add more County class, perhaps HMS London as a spin-off, Renown, Malaya, Barham (even though her scheme wasn't contentious until Mal Wright's latest drawing posted online) just because I always liked HMS Barham, and perhaps HMS Resolution. I'm also getting increasingly dissatisfied with the quality of my KGV class illustratious which were the first ones I did. They're a bit rubbish now and I feel they deserve a refresh as well as HMS Anson added. Sigh... so many pictures, so little time. I might even try to make a model one of these years.

 

[Terry1954]

Great stuff there on the Hood update Jamie, and I can understand your rationale not to try and produce the anti fouling grey in your range just yet. Having seen some recent comments on social media re the current RN Light Weatherwork Grey, I would say that some (happily not many) are never satisfied!

 

You tread a much respected and welcomed path with your research and the Colourcoats end product, and most of us are extremely grateful!

 

Terry