HMS Hood revelations

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Some interesting developments... Bad need for some of us though!

[iang]

If Hood's underwater hull was grey, how many other RN warships were similarly painted?

 

Waterline modellers might be experiencing a little schadenfreude.

 

Edit

I've just checked Mearn's wreck photos of the underside of Hood's centre section and there seems to be some anti-fouling red paint in evidence - especially on the photo of one of the grates (3rd photo down). Or is that red rust?

 

http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/2001expedition/hood/wreckhull.htm

Edited November 21, 2020 by iang

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday, this has put a spanner in the works. I was planning on doing a 1941 HMS Hood early next year. Still, if this latest is correct it'll mean a bit more variety in the display cabinet. I don't like all my model ships looking the came colour, and this'll be the first with a grey underwater hull. And better to find out before the build rather than later   -   so   -   thanks Jamie.

     I've also looked at the site mentioned by iang above. I know little about warship wrecks and don't know if the red colour is paint or rust. The caption of one of the photos says that almost no paint is left, only rust and silt on the upturned hull. Thank you both.

     Regards, Jeff.

[dickrd]

For those who have not seen it, Frank Allen of the HMS Hood Association site made the discovery and posted some original documentation on the MW site. I was able to provide some supporting evidence.  

 

The documentation and discussion starts here and runs over the subsequent pages: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4702&start=700#p919993

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

And Private Plonker here in his haste to update the illustration neglected to mention either Frank or @dickrd on it. Now I think of it, @foeth and Dave Weldon were who brought the Corticene deck part to my attention. This has now been addressed and the image in the original post above substituted for an updated version. My apologies to all four named above for my oversight!

[iang]

56 minutes ago, dickrd said:

For those who have not seen it, Frank Allen of the HMS Hood Association site made the discovery and posted some original documentation on the MW site. I was able to provide some supporting evidence.  

 

The documentation and discussion starts here and runs over the subsequent pages: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4702&start=700#p919993

 

 

Thanks for the link. I've read the 3 or 4 pages related to this with interest. My precis of this discussion with respect to the hull bottom is: (i) it seems certain than Hood was painted a grey colour for the first twenty years or so of her career; (ii) the precise characteristics of this grey colour are not yet known; (iii) the colour of her bottom hull in May 1941 is not known for certain at present, but maybe revealed if documents are extant relating to her Rosyth docking; (iv) in the meantime, the arguments for anti-fouling grey in May 1941 are continuity of practice, first hand testimony at the time of sinking and the apparent lack of evidence of red anti-fouling paint on the relatively well preserved  stern section of her wreck; (v) the main argument for anti-fouling red is the increased use of merchant marine anti-fouling paint from 1940/41, (vi) with respect to other RN ships of the interwar and early war period, it is likely that many were also not painted in anti-fouling red, but it may be impossible to fully identify which ones because of a lack of extant documentation.

 

Is this a fair summary of the current state of knowledge?

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

@iang That's essentially my understanding. I did note that Frank mentioned one entry of the colour "lilac" amongst them all, but he needs to re-read the ship's book to confirm if that's an external anti-fouling colour or a protective undercoat.

 

Somewhat frustratingly, we could probably make a reasonably educated guess at the "slate" colour of the protective undercoat, although that would be of fairly academic interest to the average model maker. It's the anti-fouling colour simply called "grey" we could benefit from knowing more about.

 

As noted by Richard on the above linked thread also, even photographs of the ship out of water may be misleading in some cases as even where we can tell if the paint is new and uniform, we don't know if the photograph portrays the undercoat or the anti-fouling topcoat unless we can see depth markings painted on or otherwise (making the reasonable assumption that these would be painted on at the end).

 

Richard's photos of builders' models with grey hulls show a dark tone of similar Light Reflectance Value to Home Fleet Grey, but one would expect them not to be the same hue - particularly from the late 1930s when Home Fleet Grey had amassed a relatively substantial proportion of Ultramarine.

 

From my very limited knowledge of anti-fouling compositions, generally the resultant colour was heavily influenced by selection of anti-fouling chemical ingredients - i.e. whatever colour the biocide(s) and binder used arrived at. I'm not aware that it can't be tinted without undermining its effectiveness, but when asking in the past of paint chemists the usual answer has been "But why would you want to?". 

[Chewbacca]

10 hours ago, iang said:

Waterline modellers might be experiencing a little schadenfreude.

 

I certainly wouldn't got that far though and in any case, unless you're modelling on a flat calm sea or the boot topping is especially deep, there's a very good chance that some of the anti-fouling will be visible in the troughs

[Phil Gollin]

.

 

Well !   I'm not going to re-paint my models, BUT I am very grateful for the information.

 

Thanks.

 

.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Come on Phil, where's your sense of "If I'm going to paint a model, I'm going to paint it right!" 😁    Seriously, I won't be repainting mine either, but new construction, well that's a different matter. But I must admit that about 55 years of conditioning (I'm nearly 64) that most underwater hulls were shades of dull red/brown has taken a bit of a battering today. 😲   Still, I'm sure the sun will still rise in the east tomorrow. And there's always "Artistic License" to fall back on.

     But thank you all for your research and time spent on this. Regards, Jeff.

[iang]

On the subject of the bottom hull colour of other RN warships, I had, in the past, wondered about this builder's model:

 

 

In the light of these revelations concerning Hood,  I shall check the Ship's Book at TNA

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by iang

[dickrd]

2 hours ago, iang said:

 

 

Thanks for the link. I've read the 3 or 4 pages related to this with interest. My precis of this discussion with respect to the hull bottom is: (i) it seems certain than Hood was painted a grey colour for the first twenty years or so of her career; (ii) the precise characteristics of this grey colour are not yet known; (iii) the colour of her bottom hull in May 1941 is not known for certain at present, but maybe revealed if documents are extant relating to her Rosyth docking; (iv) in the meantime, the arguments for anti-fouling grey in May 1941 are continuity of practice, first hand testimony at the time of sinking and the apparent lack of evidence of red anti-fouling paint on the relatively well preserved  stern section of her wreck; (v) the main argument for anti-fouling red is the increased use of merchant marine anti-fouling paint from 1940/41, (vi) with respect to other RN ships of the interwar and early war period, it is likely that many were also not painted in anti-fouling red, but it may be impossible to fully identify which ones because of a lack of extant documentation.

 

Is this a fair summary of the current state of knowledge?

 

 

(i)            Yes  

(ii)                Correct

(iii)               Correct

(iv)               Yes, but also Frank and I are in agreement that once a P&B ship likely always a P&B ship (different manufacturers’ protective and antifouling paint ‘systems’ were not necessarily compatible chemically), and Admiralty quality anti-fouling from P&B in 1941 is only listed as coming in black or grey. So red on Hood would not be an option if she was in P&B anti-fouling paint when sunk.

(v)                That is not an argument for red on Hood as sunk. The use of merchantile quality stuff was only sanctioned for use on lesser warships. At her final dry-docking she would have to have been repainted using Admiralty standard anti-fouling paint of another manufacturer that did supply in red.

(vi)               Correct

Edited November 21, 2020 by dickrd

[iang]

Thanks for the clarification on (v). The balance of probabilities strongly suggest grey when sunk it seems.  Could the black P&B paint relate to the painting of plimsol lines?  I assume that it would be desirable to paint plimsol lines in anti-fouling paint.

 

 

[Dave Swindell]

1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

From my very limited knowledge of anti-fouling compositions, generally the resultant colour was heavily influenced by selection of anti-fouling chemical ingredients - i.e. whatever colour the biocide(s) and binder used arrived at. I'm not aware that it can't be tinted without undermining its effectiveness, but when asking in the past of paint chemists the usual answer has been "But why would you want to?". 

From my experience drydocking merchant ships, it was general practice to use 2 colours of antifouling, these were applied in alternating coats, which permitted easy spotting of "holidays" in the coverage whilst building up film thickness during application, and also helped indicate where the coating was wearing away  during service, especially with SPC paints (self polishing coating). Grey and red were popular colours, but blues, and greens were used as well as one which would fit in with the Lilac mentioned above. The underwater coating had a much greater priority than the coatings above the waterline because they cost a lot more, had a significant impact on vessel performance (fuel consumption), and normally wouldn't be accessible again until the next 5 year docking.

[dickrd]

1 hour ago, iang said:

On the subject of the bottom hull colour of other RN warships, I had, in the past, wondered about this builder's model:

 

 

 Although, perhaps simplistically, listed in the Rate Book as red, I have a suspicion that the anti-fouling paint of some of the manufacturers was actually closer to brown. I continue to dig! But is that a green? One supplier did supply AF in green.

Edited November 21, 2020 by dickrd

[Dave Swindell]

1 minute ago, iang said:

Thanks for the clarification on (v). The balance of probabilities strongly suggest grey when sunk it seems.  Could the black P&B paint relate to the painting of plimsol lines?  I assume that it would be desirable to paint plimsol lines in anti-fouling paint.

Do Naval ships have Plimsol lines? these are generally painted in the same colour as the draft marks - white on dark surfaces or black on light.

Or are you referring to the boot topping / wind and wave area?

This would normally be in an intermediate type of paint specifically for this area, more resilient to the standard upper works paint, but without the full antifouling properties of the underwater coatings

[dickrd]

4 minutes ago, Dave Swindell said:

From my experience drydocking merchant ships, it was general practice to use 2 colours of antifouling, these were applied in alternating coats, which permitted easy spotting of "holidays" in the coverage whilst building up film thickness during application, and also helped indicate where the coating was wearing away  during service, especially with SPC paints (self polishing coating). Grey and red were popular colours, but blues, and greens were used as well as one which would fit in with the Lilac mentioned above. The underwater coating had a much greater priority than the coatings above the waterline because they cost a lot more, had a significant impact on vessel performance (fuel consumption), and normally wouldn't be accessible again until the next 5 year docking.

Chiming with your more recent experience, everything I have found indicates that back then the RN applied two coats of protective paint first, and these were applied in a specified order and often supplied in different colours, followed by one coat of anti-fouling that could indeed be in a different colour to the protective coats below.

[dickrd]

16 minutes ago, iang said:

Thanks for the clarification on (v). The balance of probabilities strongly suggest grey when sunk it seems.  Could the black P&B paint relate to the painting of plimsol lines?  I assume that it would be desirable to paint plimsol lines in anti-fouling paint.

 

 

I am absolutely confident that some ships were all black below the waterline.

[foeth]

Note that corticine on the boat deck is full courtesy Dave Weldon (note spelling); Frank and I then proceeded finding photographic evidence. Later Frank found corticine on the boat deck mentioned in the ship logs so that has been confirmed. Note that near/at the 4"HA emplacements that Semtex was added (as also evidenced by the ship's logs but already known); corticine holding strips are not/no longer visible in these regions. If that Semtex was light grey or a pale buff^* is as of yet unknown. We're trying to make a new sketch with what was where on the boat deck. In any case, no dark deck grey.

 

*: The Snyder & Short colour charts have early war Semtex possible as a pale buff colour, no idea if this is accurate

Edited November 21, 2020 by foeth

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Thanks @foeth. I'll make the further correction tonight. I have a friend having a bad time in need of some support this afternoon to attend to.

[europapete]

I knew there was a reason that I take sooooo long to build a model! I have not got to these areas yet so will proceed with the new info. Awesome! Thanks guys! Regards, Pete in RI

[JohnT]

I am as always hugely impressed by the amount of knowledge acquired by all the posters above and their willingness to share with the BM membership. Bravo chaps. Another school today for me in the elementary class but new knowledge gratefully received and absorbed

[iang]

1 hour ago, Dave Swindell said:

Do Naval ships have Plimsol lines?

No, I meant boot topping.

[iang]

1 hour ago, dickrd said:

 Although, perhaps simplistically, listed in the Rate Book as red, I have a suspicion that the anti-fouling paint of some of the manufacturers was actually closer to brown. I continue to dig! But is that a green? One supplier did supply AF in green.

I think it is a grey-green. It seems to be similar, if a little darker,  to the Dark Slate Grey on the Seafires.

 

[dickrd]

39 minutes ago, iang said:

No, I meant boot topping.

Ah, no that was yet another composition/Rate Book item again. As I said on MW, I am putting together a little article on it all including boot-topping colours (note the plural!) 1919-1950.  Please give me a little time to put together everything I have in a coherent manner.

 

Which carrier is that, is it a builder's model, and where is it please?

Edited November 21, 2020 by dickrd