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Apparently, in addition to eight Type 26, and five Type 31 frigates, the RN will also get the new Type 32 frigate, of which details are sparse but Sky News` Deborah Haines just described it as a better armed version of the Type 31. No political drivel please, we`re talking about the ships. Anymore info on the Type 32?

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-vows-to-make-uk-foremost-naval-power-in-europe-with-boost-to-defence-budget-12136302

 

Cheers, Ian 

Edited by 4scourge7
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I think what he means is T31e Phase 2, which is the T31e but with the budgetary constraints lifted.  The original budget was £250M for each of the first 5 platforms.  It was widely reported in the defence media last year that it was lifted to £300M per platform part way through the competitive design phase though I think I have also read somewhere in the press this year that that figure has already been further increased since the contract was signed.  But even that only gives the Navy a frigate that can defend itself against air and small boat attack; everything else, such as a sonar or anti-surface missiles, is fitted for but not with.  A Phase 2 with capability uplift was always on the cards if the Navy could squeeze more money out of the Treasury.

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Does seem the consensus that the Type 32 will be a Type 31 on steroids. The fact that most no-one seems to know, and some aren`t saying, suggests that this is the early stage of a long process. The Type 26 and Type 31 are not expected in service before 2027; one imagines the Type 32 sometime after that. Commonality with the Type 31 should help though. A possible escort force of 24 ships! Who`d have thunk it!

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As I understand it, the five T31 are `constabulary` ships that could be upgraded in a crisis, whereas the T32 will be built from the get-go as a high-end frigate. There still is a multi-billion hole in the MoD budget, even with this new money, so something has to give somewhere.

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1 hour ago, 4scourge7 said:

As I understand it, the five T31 are `constabulary` ships that could be upgraded in a crisis, whereas the T32 will be built from the get-go as a high-end frigate. There still is a multi-billion hole in the MoD budget, even with this new money, so something has to give somewhere.

 

I have seen or heard nothing so far to suggest these are high-end ships.  If that were the intent, they would have reversed the decision to cut Type 26 numbers or designated the new class in the Type 2x series.  I would like to think that the Type 31s, and Type 32s if they ever happen, will be more than the modern equivalent of the Blackwood class frigates (viz barely able to do anything even defend themselves) but am not optimistic.  I note also that it is only a "hope" to get up to 24 escorts.  In politico speech a "hope" sounds even less contractually binding than an "aspiration".

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The other factors to consider are building them elsewhere than Scotland to share the load and skill up other yards; plus they may consider the other designs put forward to the Type 31 competition as with less of constricting budget these may be amore viable fully fledged frigate with greater export potential. 

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To be honest though I dont think we will see much more in the way of news on these ships as yet, the new Stores ships and new Research ships are likely to be the next new items with a quick competition for the former and hopefully more news on the 2nd.

We're still awaiting the names for the Type 31's so they will probably start to appear soon as the cutting of steel should start soon.

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The news that the MARS ships can now be funded was a concrete piece of good news.  So they should be: the carriers are impotent without them.

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On 21/11/2020 at 11:36, 4scourge7 said:

Does seem the consensus that the Type 32 will be a Type 31 on steroids. The fact that most no-one seems to know, and some aren`t saying, suggests that this is the early stage of a long process. The Type 26 and Type 31 are not expected in service before 2027; one imagines the Type 32 sometime after that. Commonality with the Type 31 should help though. A possible escort force of 24 ships! Who`d have thunk it!

The original timeline for T31e was initial ship handover not later than Dec 2023, initial operational capability Dec 2024 and full operational capability mid 2025.  I knew that they had gone right but I hadn't realised it was by that much already.

 

13 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

The Type 32 is the export variant of the Type 31.  If more money is available, why not just build 10 x Type 32 from the word go?

Because that would mean throwing away all of the work that has gone on for the past 3 years.  The Babcock design has, as far as I am aware, already passed Preliminary Design Review and may have even passed Critical Design Review.  To look at a major redesign now to put all of the savings measures back in would effectively put everything back to square one.  Plus it would also potentially lead to legal challenges from the unsuccessful bidders that the level playing field has changed.  they would have to start again.

 

2 hours ago, 4scourge7 said:

As I understand it, the five T31 are `constabulary` ships that could be upgraded in a crisis

 

That was the original concept.  Unfortunately, the design they actually chose, if I remember correctly from the Babcock promotional video circulating YouTube in 2019, needed the Surface to Air Missile to be removed to install Surface to Surface Missiles.  And I seem to recall it wasn't a quick process (think weeks rather than days).  

 

46 minutes ago, Geoff_B said:

The other factors to consider are building them elsewhere than Scotland to share the load and skill up other yards; plus they may consider the other designs put forward to the Type 31 competition as with less of constricting budget these may be amore viable fully fledged frigate with greater export potential. 

That was the justification behind the National Shipbuilding Strategy Report, to spread the UK's naval shipbuilding capability beyond BAES and Babcock.  Unfortunately it was too little too late.  The UK's shipbuilders have suffered for years at the hands of unions who make them uncompetitive and politicians who believe that best value for money = cheapest, hence the MARS tankers being built in Korea. 

 

I can't see them revisiting the original designs.  It's bad enough introducing a new class of frigate that has a different combat management system, different propulsion system, different comms system etc to the T23/45/26 with the commensurate training burden increase.  To have another 5 or so ships with yet another design would take us back to the days of CAAIS/ADWS/CACS/SSCS when once streamed T22 you stayed T22.  The Navy's been trying for years to get a common architecture.

 

 

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And one can imagine how much further delayed the T31/T32 would be if it wasn`t already using a proven design as a basis, namely the Danish Iver Huitfeldt.

 

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On 11/22/2020 at 3:32 PM, Chewbacca said:

The original timeline for T31e was initial ship handover not later than Dec 2023, initial operational capability Dec 2024 and full operational capability mid 2025.  I knew that they had gone right but I hadn't realised it was by that much already.

 

Because that would mean throwing away all of the work that has gone on for the past 3 years.  The Babcock design has, as far as I am aware, already passed Preliminary Design Review and may have even passed Critical Design Review.  To look at a major redesign now to put all of the savings measures back in would effectively put everything back to square one.  Plus it would also potentially lead to legal challenges from the unsuccessful bidders that the level playing field has changed.  they would have to start again.

 

 

That was the original concept.  Unfortunately, the design they actually chose, if I remember correctly from the Babcock promotional video circulating YouTube in 2019, needed the Surface to Air Missile to be removed to install Surface to Surface Missiles.  And I seem to recall it wasn't a quick process (think weeks rather than days).  

 

That was the justification behind the National Shipbuilding Strategy Report, to spread the UK's naval shipbuilding capability beyond BAES and Babcock.  Unfortunately it was too little too late.  The UK's shipbuilders have suffered for years at the hands of unions who make them uncompetitive and politicians who believe that best value for money = cheapest, hence the MARS tankers being built in Korea. 

 

I can't see them revisiting the original designs.  It's bad enough introducing a new class of frigate that has a different combat management system, different propulsion system, different comms system etc to the T23/45/26 with the commensurate training burden increase.  To have another 5 or so ships with yet another design would take us back to the days of CAAIS/ADWS/CACS/SSCS when once streamed T22 you stayed T22.  The Navy's been trying for years to get a common architecture.

 

 

They woud probably specify the same systems as they are pretty much off the shelf items, as I don't think they want to guarantee Babcock's a repeat order without putting in a competitive bid  nor exclude the other shipyards from participating. 

Of course there are other ships that need to be built in the next 10-15 years apart from Escorts so the they are likely to get involved in the Stores Ship programme and whatever we get for the MCMW and Survey fleet replacement. 

 

Most of the cock up in the Ship Building was those bloody stupid pointless wars we got dragged into at the same time the very same government was cutting costs elsewhere else, cancelling the intended warship builds (the remaining Type 45s, the Type 22/Type 23 replacement/follow on by putting it into a never ending project analysis loop, cancelling the tankers and then forcing the Warship builders to merge for the big Carrot of the replacement Carriers winner takes all prize. There would have been plenty of work for all the shipyards and some would have been able to survive as a going concern.

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On 11/23/2020 at 7:20 PM, Geoff_B said:

They woud probably specify the same systems as they are pretty much off the shelf items, as I don't think they want to guarantee Babcock's a repeat order without putting in a competitive bid  nor exclude the other shipyards from participating. 

Of course there are other ships that need to be built in the next 10-15 years apart from Escorts so the they are likely to get involved in the Stores Ship programme and whatever we get for the MCMW and Survey fleet replacement. 

 

Most of the cock up in the Ship Building was those bloody stupid pointless wars we got dragged into at the same time the very same government was cutting costs elsewhere else, cancelling the intended warship builds (the remaining Type 45s, the Type 22/Type 23 replacement/follow on by putting it into a never ending project analysis loop, cancelling the tankers and then forcing the Warship builders to merge for the big Carrot of the replacement Carriers winner takes all prize. There would have been plenty of work for all the shipyards and some would have been able to survive as a going concern.

Stupid and pointless maybe ...I just did and got a couple of gongs for turning up....they all sat in my t towel drawers now....but do you really think if we hadn't taken part the ship numbers would have been better....I think with respect you have deluded yourself.However we can hope 👍😀

Edited by junglierating
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15 hours ago, junglierating said:

Stupid and pointless maybe ...I just did and got a couple of gongs for turning up....they all sat in my t towel drawers now....but do you really think if we hadn't taken part the ship numbers would have been better....I think with respect you have deluded yourself.However we can hope 👍😀

Its not the ship numbers its the ship building programme, the is generally a steady flow of warships being built to keep the yards current and the fleet refreshed during the 90s it was the type 23s then the type 45s then it would have been the type 26's but they culled the Type 45 half way through, put the development of next generation warship into endless definition projects without any real designs as they robbed the long term budget to pay for short term doo-doo for the Army. That's why we got the 5 rivers when what we really needed was Frigates because the design wasn't ready and the Type 45 programme had ended early so there was nothing ready to build off the drawing board.

The Army is in even worse shape as they haven't a clue what they are supposed to be doing or what they need and have wasted 20 yrs with virtually nothing to show for it 

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Experience....bitter is what the Army and the other services have got to show for it.

Bottom line is money and defence isnt in the electorates top priorities therefore easily culled.I swear some people and politicians think we have fleets of ships...aircraft and lots of squaddies.People arent interested in joining up although that may change if jobs are scarce.

Problem is the Army is probably at its critical mass point less that 80k....the less prople less capacity to train or task.

19 ships isnt really 19 ....take out refits,downtime and unscheduled maintenance..or lack of spares.. and you are in trouble.

It's not all bad I'm well somewhere hot atm and it does come together...I say that as a strawberry mivi with 22 years in the mob behind me...

Good point about the rivers it kinda has a ring of truth to it 

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