Morane Saulnier 406 MS-619 Finnish Air Force

[Weatherman]

Hello to all fellow modellers. This post is mainly directed for our Finn friends, as I am looking for information regarding the undersurface camouflage colour of the aircraft refered on the title. The discussion is on the MS.406 registered MS-619 "White 5", flying with the Finnish Air Force since end of 1941, in the hands of Antti Tani. I have a doubt regarding the lower sides camo, for March 1943, when the aircraft is depitcted wearing white distemper, during winter operations 1942-43.

Reading the book "Fiinish Camouflage Colours 1939-1945", in the chapter regarding the Morane's, someone can find this specific registration (MS-619) in the list of about 14 aircraft that were repainted in Light Blue (RLM65-Hellblau), being previously painted in the Vaaleanharmaa (Light Grey) undersurfaces. This happened in the second half of 1942, after a relative order that was signed in May 1942. The only photos, showing this aircraft carrying the white dope, refer to March 1943, just before the fighter took a brand new camouflage (at the same colours as previously, but probably repainted due to the worn camo surfaces).

 

So the questions are:

 

1) If I would like to paint the plane as it is depicted in March 1943, would I paint the undersurfaces RLM65 or Light Grey? In the first case, what will be the colour for the wheel hubs, the inside part of the landing gear hatches and landing gears themselves? Sources refer to "same colour as undersurface" for the above three areas.

2) Would it be safe to paint white winter dope with Light Gray undersurface, assuming the aircraft flying during the 1941-42 winter with wite distemper, but without a photo reference? The idea is based on the thought that since it took the white distemper in 1942-43, then why not 1941-42? Or maybe this is wrong?

 

Looking forward to read your opinions with high interest.

 

Kiitos in advance!

 

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

My own archival research is almost zero regarding Morane 406. There is at least one photo of MS-619 from winter 1941-42 (17.3.42*) and the plane has no winter camouflage. It has tail ski instead of tail wheel, but it is not the early French "spur".  Tail ski also winter 42-43, MS-619 first visit to VL (factory) was May 1944 so it may have had light grey undersides until that. Units did not paint whole planes, even undersides. Repaint during depot visit possible but MS-619 has no recorded depot repair in SIH 4 Morane M.S.406 book, 2004 edition. I do not have the book you mention so someone else has to comment that.

 

I have understood winter camo painting was avoided if ever possible. Necessary camo on ground could be arranged using white covers etc.

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

* The 17.3.42 picture is available at SA-kuva:

http://sa-kuva.fi/static/42/67/4267_r500.jpg

Same day, colour photo :

http://sa-kuva.fi/static/56/69/165669_r500.jpg

 

Colour photo of MS-619

http://sa-kuva.fi/static/60/43/166043_r500.jpg

 

For some reason I cannot insert these photo on the Britmodeller-forum.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Kari Lumppio

[AaCee26]

Hi,

 

IPMS-Mallari magazine #53 page 6 says that MS-619 got DN-Colour belly on 27th October 1942 and that the whole aircraft was re-painted on August 5th, 1943. I donät know where this information comes from or how reliable it is. The tail number "5" is in newer style in the SIH 4 book photo with winter camouflage.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

[BS_w]

Airplane coded MS-619 was an MS 410(air scoop radiator fairing, bullet proof windshield)  with MS 406 wing(two machine guns)
the oleo struts of MS 410 had torque link.

[72modeler]

There is a color photo of Ms619 in Kari Stenman's Finnish Fighter Colors, 1939-45, that shows the tail '5' in the double white outline style, and the photo was taken in September, 1943. There is a notation that this Morane got a repaint at the depot level  on August 5, 1943, so would have had the DN blue-grey, RLM65 FS35414 undersides. There are several photos taken in 1942, and a color profile that show her in the olive green/black/light grey camouflage, with the light grey being listed as FS16440, which is an equivalent for light gull grey

Mike

[BS_w]

[Weatherman]

Thank you everybody for your answers and your help. Kari, regarding the MMP book by Stenman and Holda, it is refered that until the end of 1942, the order which had to do with the repainting of undersurfaces into DN colour, was completed in 14 MS.406's, with all the serial number provided. Probably the writer undertook some kind of research I suppose, until he reached to this result. There is, though, no source to this in the book (ie. a formal document). I want to believe that the information is correct. Comparing to what AaCee wrote about the IPMS issue, they seem to match each other. 

 

There is a photo in SIH4 that shows the bird exactly with the camouflage I would like to paint, in spring 1943:

 

https://ibb.co/q9RtGch

 

Very few information can be earned by this shot, though...

 

So: DN of Light Grey for March 1943?

[Weatherman]

Some more photographs of this plane:

 

1) MS-619 undertaking some kind of service (maybe change of tail wheel into ski, or the opposite?). Camouflage seems quite worn, especially regarding the yellow ring in the rear fuselage and also the undersurfaces. No win bar on the hotizontal stabilizer. Also,here propeller tips painted in yellow (?) colour:

 

This well-known one is taken at Solomanni in summer 1942. Seems to be in rather good condition, and I assume this is a later or earlier photo, comparing to the above, since we have one win bar on the stabilizer. Looking at the port wing, someone can notice three-tone camouflage around the left swastika, or it is a light trick. Propeller tips, not yellow, but black (do you agree?) :

 

If we compare the above two photographs, it is clear that the undersurfaces and the yellow parts (nose and rear fuselage) seem to have taken a new paint job, as the worn colour in the first photo is clearly gone now. Also, looking at the second photograph, there is almost no weathering comparing to the rest of camouflage, in the mentioned areas. Very probably, new paint has been applied to these areas.

 

Next photo seems to be in quite similar time with the above. Maybe same day, or around these days:

 

Again, yellow areas and undersurfaces brand new compared to black and green camo. One win bar.

 

And Antti Tani with his engineer at Solomanni in March 1943. White distemper over camouflage with 2,5 win bars on the horizontal stabilizer. I wonder what shot-down planes these 2,5 lines refer to:

 

Finally, a colour profile coming from SIH4, shows the airplane with DN undersurfaces:

 

 

Any final thoughts @Kari Lumppio, @AaCee26 or anyone else?  

Edited November 19, 2020 by Weatherman

[Vesa Jussila]

First picture is probably taken when guns were fixed to certain distance and this 3-tone is definitely  trick of light. FAF upper surface was black an green in that period.

[AaCee26]

On 11/18/2020 at 12:33 AM, Weatherman said:

 Probably the writer undertook some kind of research I suppose, until he reached to this result

Hi all,

 

Mr. Stenman is a well-known author of tens of books about the FInnish AF and his works are based on tens of years of archive study. So I'm sure that he has done his homework and he could also be the source for the dates in the IPMS publication too.

On 11/19/2020 at 8:29 PM, Weatherman said:

Some more photographs of this plane:

Those photos are in time order. The original Finnish camouflage was fast chipped away as is seen in the first winter image. Other individual aircraft close to this number has had the same effect as can be seen in SIH 4 book in MS-616 during june 1942. In second phot the fabric area is clearly re-painted as the "vawe" between upper and lower colours is different.

 

Left wing tip might be partially re-painted?

 

Three first pictures are from year 1942 and they have earlier style white outline only number 5 when the fourth is after complete re-painting with number in different font.

 

Based on the changes on the painting and what is said in the Finnish sources it is safe to assume that it was DN-blue during the winter camouflage 1943.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

 

[Weatherman]

Thank you very AaCee for your studied answer. This is what I also conclude to, DN undersurfaces. Have a nice all, and thanks once more!