Canberra T17, 1/48 with Alley Cat parts

[Lord Riot]

After some deliberation and almost starting a Jaguar, I've decided to plunge into this rather complicated Alley Cat Canberra conversion. 

 

I'll be making a hemp one I think, as sometime in the future I'm planning to do the TT18 in green/grey camo with the black & yellow underside.

 

The T17 was flown by England rugby legend Rory Underwood, our record Test try scorer (49 tries in 85 games between 1984-96) who was also an RAF pilot during his playing career before rugby turned professional!

 

 

 

First question, (possibly for @canberra kid?) which of the Airfix Canberra kits is best for a T17, or despite the box are they the same? 

 

 

 

The colour in the first option is incorrect, apparently there were no grey T17s, but I'll probably do WH902/EK in hemp instead.

 

 

A few of the decals missing as it was an ebay 'bargain' (ish), but I have all the ones I need, I think. I probably won't bother cutting off the kit cockpit for the replacement though, it'd be more trouble than it's worth given my 'ability'!

 

Second question, do I need to bother with the Alley Cat tip tanks or are the Airfix ones adequate enough?

[perdu]

There will be experts along to advise so I'll stick with encouraging you.

One thing I often say is if it suits you go ahead and do it.

You have the resin ones so why not use the build as a lesson in the new materials, go on you can do it.

[Fritag]

5 hours ago, perdu said:

There will be experts along to advise so I'll stick with encouraging you.

 

Defo not an expert, but I’ll second Bill’s encouragement.  Love the canberra.

[Lord Riot]

I guess I'll just use the newer kit, if I mess it up they're still available!

[71chally]

I would use the resin, can't remember if, or what the issue is with the kit tanks, but there must be a reason for the resin ones.    Thinking on it, the kit ones might not have the cable duct that feeds the nose tip light.

Some T.17s were fitted with a modified tip tank that incorporated chaff dispensers, so the resin ones might have those?  

 

 

Also, when building the kit, check and recheck references, so that the appropriate bits of the kit are used. @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies did a T.17 build and it's well worth reading.

[canberra kid]

@Lord Riot

Any of the B.2/B(I)6 kits will do the job. As for the tanks, I wouldn't bother, just detail the kit ones with Navigation lights and the external wiering for them. 

John

Edited November 18, 2020 by canberra kid
Typo

[Stramash]

Underwood was a couple of courses behind me at IOT at Cranwell. Someone pointed him out to me (this was a couple of years before his first cap) and said "he'll play for Engalnd one day". Obviously, I poured scorn on this - still no idea how my mate could predict that, as I don't think he'd ever seen him play.

[Lord Riot]

Thanks chaps! I've been reading Jamie's build, it's very helpful. I'll have a look at the tip tanks in due course, I've a feeling this will be my longest and most involved build yet, probably won't finish 'til after Christmas.

 

In the meantime, another conundrum has arisen; would I be correct to assume I should use the shorter of the two intake nozzles (B)?

 

[canberra kid]

8 minutes ago, Lord Riot said:

Thanks chaps! I've been reading Jamie's build, it's very helpful. I'll have a look at the tip tanks in due course, I've a feeling this will be my longest and most involved build yet, probably won't finish 'til after Christmas.

 

In the meantime, another conundrum has arisen; would I be correct to assume I should use the shorter of the two intake nozzles (B)?

 

Yes the shorter of the two types

John

[Lord Riot]

I took these photos in the cockpit of the Canberra TT18 nose preserved at the Avro Heritage Museum. Some Canberras were assembled and first flown from Woodford I believe. 

 

I'm hoping the T17 cockpit is virtually identical. Pretty sure it'll be a black pit anyway! I'm wondering if it's worth looking for an Eduard instrument panel set, but you can't see much once it's sealed.

 

 

[canberra kid]

Just now, Lord Riot said:

I took these photos in the cockpit of the Canberra TT18 nose preserved at the Avro Heritage Museum. Some Canberras were assembled and first flown from Woodford I believe. 

 

I'm hoping the T17 cockpit is virtually identical. Pretty sure it'll be a black pit anyway! I'm wondering if it's worth looking for an Eduard instrument panel set, but you can't see much once it's sealed.

 

 

The front is similar, the back is very different, take a look at the T.17 cockpit album on my site, IPMS UK Canberra SIG, Avro built 75 B.2's

John

[Lord Riot]

The first step, creating this box of tricks on the starboard side of the rear cockpit. 

 

 

Image courtesy of @canberra kid's website: https://ipmscanberrasig.webs.com/

 

I used a piece of foam then just cut it to shape, painted dark grey then with a cocktail stick for the dials and switches. I used a bit of yellow sticker and wires for the extra detail. It'll win no art competitions but once shut in the back of a Canberra cockpit should look adequate.

 

 

 

[Lord Riot]

After looking at a few Canberra builds on here I filled those massive grooves on the rudder with liquid putty. Wish I'd known to do that when I did my PR9!

 

 

[Lord Riot]

In the absence of an aftermarket etch or kit decals for the instrument panels I painted them satin black then once dry gently scraped off some of the paint from the raised dials and buttons. The real thing has black dials on a black panel, so I didn't remove too much of the paint, just enough to highlight a bit of detail.

 

[perdu]

That works nicely

 

👍

[Lord Riot]

I thought the nav would have an aerial navigation chart and RAF issue notes on his table. Probably won't even see them once it's all closed up though! 

 

 

Does anybody know if despite its 'T' trainer designation, was this Canberra ever intended to be used operationally? After all, if it could jam British/NATO comms, surely it could do the same to 'less friendly nations'? Surprised they weren't used in the Gulf War. Or were they? ... 

[Lord Riot]

Most of the cockpit done, just hoping it fits! I'll need to cut through the flat bit at the front once the fuselage halves are together to fit the T17 nose.

 

 

[Filler]

That looks brilliant and for me does beat using decals.

[canberra kid]

4 hours ago, Lord Riot said:

I thought the nav would have an aerial navigation chart and RAF issue notes on his table. Probably won't even see them once it's all closed up though! 

 

 

Does anybody know if despite its 'T' trainer designation, was this Canberra ever intended to be used operationally? After all, if it could jam British/NATO comms, surely it could do the same to 'less friendly nations'? Surprised they weren't used in the Gulf War. Or were they? ... 

All looking good! As for the T in T.17, they have never got it a fight, you're right in saying they were very capable ECM platforms even more so with the introduction of T.17A, one of the issues with using the T,17 operationally was performance, being based on the B.2 she wasn't the most powerful Canberra, with all the ECM kit and the rather un aerodynamic nose, she was operating at the edge of performance, There was a proposal to re wing the T.17's with a 'wet wing' and Avon 109's like the PR.7 and B.6's, but that never happened, even if it had a doubt it would have put her on the front line. If you want to venture into the world of what if, then if if you have the wet wing you also also under wing hardpoints so you could wire them for sidewinders for self defense in a more aggressive environment.

John         

[Lord Riot]

Thanks John, interesting info about the performance, I hadn't considered the performance. I was thinking a stand-off platform like the E-3, which in reality would also probably be a sitting duck if MiGs and missiles starting coming.

 

Thanks for the likes and comments chaps. Definitely won't be doing a what if here, sticking strictly to reality as closely as my ability allows. Out of interest, anyone know what year T17s started getting painted hemp? I'm sure I saw a couple of photos captioned as early as 1987 with hemp Canberras. I'm thinking of this scheme with the full colour red & blue roundels, full size on the wings and the squadron flashes on the fuselage. Rather like this:

 

[canberra kid]

43 minutes ago, Lord Riot said:

Thanks John, interesting info about the performance, I hadn't considered the performance. I was thinking a stand-off platform like the E-3, which in reality would also probably be a sitting duck if MiGs and missiles starting coming.

 

Thanks for the likes and comments chaps. Definitely won't be doing a what if here, sticking strictly to reality as closely as my ability allows. Out of interest, anyone know what year T17s started getting painted hemp? I'm sure I saw a couple of photos captioned as early as 1987 with hemp Canberras. I'm thinking of this scheme with the full colour red & blue roundels, full size on the wings and the squadron flashes on the fuselage. Rather like this:

 

The order for the Hemp scheme was issued 31st Jan 1986

[canberra kid]

1 hour ago, Lord Riot said:

Thanks John, interesting info about the performance, I hadn't considered the performance. I was thinking a stand-off platform like the E-3, which in reality would also probably be a sitting duck if MiGs and missiles starting coming.

 

Thanks for the likes and comments chaps. Definitely won't be doing a what if here, sticking strictly to reality as closely as my ability allows. Out of interest, anyone know what year T17s started getting painted hemp? I'm sure I saw a couple of photos captioned as early as 1987 with hemp Canberras. I'm thinking of this scheme with the full colour red & blue roundels, full size on the wings and the squadron flashes on the fuselage. Rather like this:

 

The 2and  order for the Hemp scheme was issued 31st Jan 1986, the first was 17th Dec 1984, I'm not sure what the chang was in later amendment.

 

John

[71chally]

13 hours ago, canberra kid said:

There was a proposal to re wing the T.17's with a 'wet wing' and Avon 109's like the PR.7 and B.6's, but that never happened, even if it had a doubt it would have put her on the front line.

You think it would have been easier just to have taken B.6s out of storage at BAC?

Could the 2nd order have brought in the pale roundels and markings?  Or were they later again?

 

Also, wasn't the T Trainer designation just a cover?  I think the guys flying these things near the borders in the Cold-war would have said it was operational. 

I always wondered if it would have had the R designation of Comets and Nimrods.  The Nimrod R.1 was used in the Gulf War and would have been the superior platform for the ECM task.

 

Coming on nicely there LR, nice little touches with the interior, like the trick with the foam pad!

[Terry1954]

Have to follow a Canberra build, these aircraft were part of my early days of employment. Used to get to crawl all over them!

 

Great start on the internals.

 

Terry

[Lord Riot]

A final look before it's sealed up forever. Shame really!