1/72 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-2?

[Johnson]

Which is the best 1/72 Bf 109 G-2?

 

I've wanted to build "Black 6" ever since I read Russ Snadden's book on it's restoration. I was lucky enough to see the plane at Duxford in 1996 and 1997 before the landing accident ended its flying career .

 

I have Dave's Decals for Black 6, so which model to choose? I've done a search and found the very useful @Adam Poultney thread. For a G2 it's either Fine Mold (hard to find) or AZ which, according to some, has accuracy issues. Or could I modify a G6? I have an old Hasegawa G6 in the stash, or the latest Tamiya G6?

 

Any guidance much appreciated!

[Graham Boak]

Th finest 109G is the Tamiya G-6.   The AZ does indeed have accuracy issues, but it is not the only G-6 about which that can be said!   Which kit you choose will determine how much work there is to do.  By "old Hasegawa" do you mean their earlier one from the 70s or there later one from the 90s?  Neither are terrible but I'd prefer the later one.  Not sure which would be easier to convert without checking - bulges can come as separate parts and if these were provided that way then you've almost got a G-2 already.

 

To convert back to a G-2, the primary thing to do is remove the bulges for the heavier nose armament, and the nose gun troughs are presumably shorter.  There is a bulge above the wing for the larger tyre.  There may well be other detail differences I've missed, plus those depending upon the specific airframes and also whether these are represented on the kit you are working with.  Depending upon your level of tolerance, these may not matter.  I presume that wheels and tyres suitable for the G-2 are available as aftermarket products, or may even be present in the kit you choose to use anyway.  (I predict not in the Tamiya.)

 

[Johnson]

Hi Graham,

Just checked Scalemates and my Hasegawa G6 is the 1994 'New Tool', so that's good. I did make one ages ago, still on the shelf, and I liked the model and the result. So may go that way. There are Fine Molds around, having just looked at eBay, but the G6 not the G2, but which might be worth 'investing' in anyway, but not cheap - £25!

Cheers,

[Graham Boak]

If I remember, I'll look at my AZ G-6 and see whether one of the spare top cowlings is actually for a version (G-2) with the smaller mgs.  I suspect so: if so you can have it and that'll solve one problem - if you can make it fit neatly.  If so it may have earlier wheels as well.  One good point about the AZ is the number of spare parts for different variants, but the fuselage shape was initially too shallow and the nose too short... Bodgeable but not recommended.  They have improved it on later issues, but I'm not sure which late variants this applies to and  not their G-2.

[Chuck1945]

Once upon a time (before FineMolds) I made a F-4 from the Hasegawa G-6 so a G-2 is doable. But the Hasegawa kit does have a glitch regarding shape, the wing is too thin, especially at the fuselage so the entire fuselage from the trailing edge of the wing join is too narrow in height. Back when I did mine there really wasn’t an worthwhile alternative kit, so and the thickness issue wasn’t important enough to me to be a deterrence. Now there are alternatives, each with pros and cons, the choice is yours.

[Graham Boak]

I've had a dig through various boxes, and after some shuffling between boxes, I found spare copies of spoked wheels (possibly original Frog!) and the smaller tailwheel.  I didn't actually mention that...  I did find the difference in the nose troughs - the visible muzzles are shorter on the G-2 and the aft end of the fairing is rounded slightly further aft of the square-cut end of the later ones.  This should be fairly easy to modify from the kit part, if you or anyone else would notice.  So remove the bumps and you're away.  Alternatively, maybe someone else has a spare from the AZ kit.  It turns out that I don't, as I will probably need it for a G-4.  (Recce version with twin tanks - supposedly the one from "The Big Circus" is a G-6 but I'm not sure at the moment that such existed, and all the options in my Kora boxing are G-4s.)

 

If you're interested in those few bits send me a PM with your address.

 

As in all these things: you've got the kit, if could could be better it's still a kit crying "make me!".

 

PS  I suppose we should ask which individual aircraft you are thinking about making?  Who knows what variations may be uncovered?  I'm currently reading Luftwaffe Fighters etc. in the Far North, and there are some gorgeous colour schemes in there.  But I'm modelling a Romanian G-2 fighter-bomber from an old Heller G, so perhaps best not to look too closely - yes it does have spoked wheels!

 

 

[Johnson]

Hi Graham - PM sent!

 

47 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

PS  I suppose we should ask which individual aircraft you are thinking about making?

 

It would be Black 6, the G-2 captured in the desert by the RAAF, restored and then crashed. Yesterday, going through my stuff, I came across a cutting from The Telegraph, 13th October 1997, reporting the crash. Finding the cutting triggered me - I must make it! I read the book of it's restoration and saw it fly a couple of times. I saw it at Flying Legends in July 1997 and luckily managed to miss the show in October when it crashed (I'd seen P-38 California Cutie crash the year before and after that airshows weren't quite the same). I've been meaning to make Black 6 for years!

 

52 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I'm modelling a Romanian G-2 fighter-bomber from an old Heller G

 

What's the Heller G-2 like Graham? I see they do a G2/5/6 kit, I could make this in the Heller GB which would be great.

 

Cheers,

[Graham Boak]

A bit dated now.  Too short in the rear fuselage.  Was nice in its day but there are better Heller kits - their 109B and 109K for example.

[Chuck1945]

1 hour ago, Johnson said:

 

...

What's the Heller G-2 like Graham? I see they do a G2/5/6 kit, I could make this in the Heller GB which would be great.

 

Cheers,

Acceptable in 1980 when there were no real alternatives...  Again it really depends upon your tolerance, for instance the K has the the prop molded with the pitch reversed, fixable by cutting off the plug that connects the prop blades to fuselage and putting the prop on the spinner ‘backwards’.
 

My view is probably biased though since I was so happy when FineMolds finally did a series of F/G/K 109s that were basically accurate I literally bought dozens

[Graham Boak]

Doing that will not correct the pitch change as needed.  You have to buy a replacement prop.  However the K was a vast improvement on the G.

[MDriskill]

IMHO the Fine Molds kit is still the best G-2 out-of-the-box. Some have minor accuracy gripes with them, and the interior detail is less than AZ or Tamiya, but still these are excellent kits that build up beautifully.

 

The issue with all of AZ's early-G kits, is the fuselage is too shallow at the firewall. Throws off both fuselage shape and wing incidence; from the side they have this curious crimp there...as if the nose was folded down, and then wouldn't quite come back all the way...!

 

But as an alternative, slightly off-the-wall suggestion, AZ's later F kits fix this glitch pretty well, and converting an F to a G-2 is not too tough. That approach might bring the very nice Zvezda F into the mix as well.

Edited November 16, 2020 by MDriskill

[Michael louey]

Hi Johnson,

 

I'm well experienced with "Black 6" having built it twice, both times using the Fine Molds kit. Of the current alternatives, the others would be the AZ kit which others have mentioned has nose shape issues and in some cases fit problems. The other kit mentioned, the Zvezda F2 is a kit I'm currently building. Shape wise the Zvezda kit is meant to be even more accurate than the Fine Molds but some of the engineering issues I've encountered with it have made it a more difficult build than the Fine Molds. By the way, depending on how accurate you want to be, there is a bit of work converting a "F" to a "G-2". Among them are the extra inlets for the engine, possible prop size differences (unless you have a kit of an F4Z) and perhaps wheel well shapes (some F's have round wheel wells though the Fine Molds wing allows you (and requires you to for a G-2) change them to squared off wells). Another item is the Canopy - F's have a windscreen with an additional clear panel on the port side (whereas G's had a solid panel with an air vent) and the canopy has heavier framing - though "Black 6" as it was operated in the Desert had a "F" canopy as the original "G" canopy was damaged/lost. Also, whichever kit you choose, it will make life a lot easier to get a version with a "tropical filter" - I don't think the Zvezda kit has one (It also has a solid air intake).

 

Here's my build of the G-2 and a comparison with an F-4 - you should be able to spot the differences.

 

109F-4

 

The only real issue you'll encounter is sourcing a Fine Molds kit. I've got most of mine from Japan - hopefully England has more choices than Australia.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

Edited November 16, 2020 by Michael louey

[Duncan B]

The simple answer is to get your hands on a Finemolds G2 (or G4 at a push as it's just the wing tops that are different in the G-4 kit). Frome Model Centre are Finemolds Importers so try contacting them or keep checking auction sites (I recently sold 2x Finemolds G-2 kits for roughly the normal RRP so they are readily available).

 

Duncan B 

[Graham Boak]

There should be a difference - spoked wheels on G-2 stamped discs on G-4.

[Vlad]

I think people have been put off by the AZ kit shape issues like some kind of bogeyman. It does have shape issues, but if you're talking about converting a G-6, you're already letting yourself in for far, far more work than what it takes to fix the AZ kit. The location and shape of the later 13mm MG troughs is nowhere near that of the earlier 7.7s, so without a suitable spare and a lot of surgery it's not just a case of taking the bulges off the G-6. Most G-6 kits bring their own shape/quality/accuracy baggage anyway, even the Hasegawa is distinctly "meh".

 

The AZ model is great in detail and shape elsewhere. A minimum fix is just a cut at the aft end of the exhausts and shimming the lower engine cowl and wing leading edges down a bit to fatten it. There's more to it if you want to follow me down the rabbit hole but honestly the above is enough to make it look good without obsessing. It's 10 minutes work, why tear your hair out slicing and dicing a G-6 kit?

 

I also propose another solution, if you want a conversion route. Start with a Zvezda F-2. It's the most accurately shaped 1/72 109, gives you the early machine guns and is really cheap. You then need to find a G style canopy, make some air scoops on the cowling and re-scribe a couple of fuselage panels (which you may choose to ignore, but the location of the fuel hatch is a big obvious change from F to G).

 

Or, if you really want kitbash surgery, use the Zvezda F-2 nose on your choice of G-6 body. And fix the wing bulges, use the spoked wheels, smaller tail wheel etc.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Vlad

[Graham Boak]

I would disagree that fixing the AZ is nice and easy.  As MDriskill said, the main problem is that the fuselage-nose join is too shallow, making the wing incidence too high and affecting the ground stance.  I fixed this by cutting a slit into the fuselage following the wing fuselage fairing and the line of the exhausts, then wedging thick plastic strip into the cut to force it apart, then filling and filing.  I wouldn't call that nice and easy.  It still doesn't address what I've seen described as too short a section from the windscreen to the engine cowling, nor just what the exhausts are doing after the correction to the fuselage.  I suspect that it might be better to cut the nose off and then wedge the separate nose and fuselage apart to widen it at the wing leading edge, but once is enough.  Otherwise, yes, it's very nice, and provides lots of spare bits for different variants.  However the change to the upper gun troughs is not that difficult to do - unless this is yet another flaw in the AZ kit?

 

I agree that working from the Zvezda F (I haven't seen it, and I've seen too many other 109 kits declared as "the bee's knees" not to be a little cautious) would seem to be fairly straightforward.  But wouldn't an F-4 with its deeper under-nose cooler be more appropriate?  However, as the original poster actually has a Hasegawa G-6, why spend more money and prepare for more work (and still be left with a Hasegawa G-6) as opposed to the expense of a few parts and a little modelling?  No more than needed to change a G-6 to a G-2.  If he really thinks that the Hasegawa kit is unacceptable (I don't) then he's better off holding out for a Fine Molds.

[Vlad]

The AZ is too long forward of the canopy not too short. But yes, you are absolutely right, the real fix is a huge amount of work which is why I didn't want to go into it 😁 But I still think a slight fattening of the lower nose is enough as a shortcut to make a presentable 109.

 

Zvezda sadly do not make an F-4 in 1/72, and yes the oil radiator is too shallow in that case.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Vlad

[Johnson]

17 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

I was so happy when FineMolds finally did a series of F/G/K 109s that were basically accurate I literally bought dozens

 

10 hours ago, MDriskill said:

IMHO the Fine Molds kit is still the best G-2 out-of-the-box.

 

5 hours ago, Michael louey said:

I'm well experienced with "Black 6" having built it twice, both times using the Fine Molds kit

 

2 hours ago, Duncan B said:

The simple answer is to get your hands on a Finemolds G2

 

Thanks chaps!

 

I've found a Fine Molds FL18 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-2/R6 Grünherz, so I guess this is the one to buy (the price is reasonable).

[Duncan B]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

There should be a difference - spoked wheels on G-2 stamped discs on G-4.

Yes the wheels are different too

[Chuck1945]

20 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Doing that will not correct the pitch change as needed.  You have to buy a replacement prop.  However the K was a vast improvement on the G.

Memory may have faded since the last Heller K I built was in the early 80s. What I was remembering (perhaps incorrectly) and perhaps said incorrectly was pitch, is that as molded, the Heller prop was set up to turn in the opposite direction than it should

[Graham Boak]

You are quite right (plus, we now know that the refined cowl is asymmetric), but turning it round does not reverse the pitch.  The leading edge needs to be on the other side, so a rotation of the blades by some 120 or so degrees is required.  So it is much easier to get an after-market prop.  This is perhaps easier to understand by actually looking at a pair of props, one left hand and one right hand.  Reversing the kit prop puts the old leading edge where the old trailing edge was, and so on.  So the pitch remains unchanged  but now the blade section and profile are wrong.

[Graham Boak]

PS Does the Fine Molds G-4 come with spoked wheels for its G-2 option?  There are some tempting JG 5 examples, but similar F-4s.

[Chuck1945]

27 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

PS Does the Fine Molds G-4 come with spoked wheels for its G-2 option?  There are some tempting JG 5 examples, but similar F-4s.

My recollection is the wheel sprues are in all the kits. I’m not home right now but I’ll confirm the wheel situation when I get back (1 hour +-)

[AaCee26]

Hi all,

 

Easiest way is to go to the FineMolds G-2 and accept the simplistic cockpit interior and a couple of accuracy issues.

 

Myself I'll likely modify next the Zvezda F-2 to a G-2 the way Vlad already told. Although I think the oil cooler in the kit is the later, deep variety as I had to change it for an F-2 I built earlier. Compressor intake and prop blades are the earlier, narrow type. Drilling the intake wouldn't be not too complicated for most modellers. For later types there are recent intakes with sand filters from QuickBoost as well as the aileron mass balances.

 

Removing the fuselage-wing hooks and filing the right side of the fin would help to fit the parts better together. A couple of rounds of Mr. Surfacer will take care of the sink marks on the wings.

 

AZ kits from F to G-6 and G-14 "beule" front fuselages are not only too shallow nose but also, IIRC, about 1.4  millimeters too long. This leads to the exhaust to be too far forward from the wing leading edge. I cut one nose behind the cowling rear edges as a "Z" cutting and shortened it from this cutting. Also wing incidence was changed with a blug between wing and fuselage in the front and wing-fuselage panels sanded from the upper side to match the wing. Also a wedge was added below the exhaust stacks to get the lower cowling to match the belly. Lot of work which I'm not willing to do again. Second one I cut straight in front of the leading edge and re-done the rear cowl seam lines and wedge below exhausts.

 

Hasegawa "new" G would need in addition to thicker wing also dropping the prop downwards to make the profile sensible, Heller "new" K was really best of the time which I have seen a few times modified to earlier G-types.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

[Graham Boak]

32 minutes ago, AaCee26 said:

Hasegawa "new" G would need in addition to thicker wing also dropping the prop downwards to make the profile sensible, Heller "new" K was really best of the time which I have seen a few times modified to earlier G-types.

 

I did that to the old Airfix 109G-6, so I'm not adverse to doing it again, but the nose of the later Hasegawa 109G is a match for that of the Heller K.  Or do you mean tilting it down slightly rather than lowering it?  I am currently foreseeing my example ending up as a JG 5 G-2.  I may be short a small tailwheel but I've spares of the late extended leg, which has a smaller tailwheel than the usual G-6.

 

My FM G-10 no longer has spare wheels etc, but that would explain where the pair in my spares box came from - I was blaming a Frog F.  Talking of spare parts, does the AZ G-10 with the revised fuselage (whichever one that is) come with all the spares of the earlier kits?  Perhaps I could be persuaded to try another...but with Eduard ones coming I doubt it.