Jump to content

Ki-84 Frank, Hasegawa 1/72 -- Bare metal odyssey!


opus999

Recommended Posts

On 11/20/2020 at 10:27 AM, alt-92 said:

Best wishes in any case.

Thanks!  So far everything has actually worked out well.

 

On 11/20/2020 at 10:27 AM, alt-92 said:

Wrt: stripping the kit down - did you use Self-leveling thinners with the Mr.Surfacer? Because that stuff sprayed neat: Will. Strip. Everything. Off.

Ask me how I know :P

This gave me the confidence to try using it to strip the paint off.  You can see the results above... and it didn't harm the plastic at all.  I'll be posting about how I stripped the whole a/c later today.  I ended up getting quite a bit of Mr. Levelling thinner on the plastic and it turned out just fine.  Thanks for the nudge! 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, opus999 said:

Spoiler alert: I stripped the whole thing yesterday afternoon.  It only took about a half hour. Great stuff.

 

16 minutes ago, opus999 said:

 Last night I primed it and got the silver leaf back on.  So I'm back where I started, which is a good thing.

 

That's absolutely brilliant - looking forward to seeing round two!

Kind regards,

Mark

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yesterday my middle son and I went on a 5 mile hike with his scout troop.  One neat thing about this town is that there are excellent hiking opportunities right in the middle of town.  The Columbia river runs through the middle of the Tri-Cities and a lot of the shore line is undeveloped, so the 3 cities and the county put in some very nice hiking trails in some of those undeveloped areas.  It was below freezing, but a great hike nonetheless. 

 

I still found a little time to work on the Frank.  I decided to bite the bullet and spend a half hour stripping paint.  I chose a half hour because I figured that was all I could stand.  Well, it turned out to be enough!

 

9N43Cfb.jpg

 

ktflBdA.jpg

 

No damage to the plastic and a very, very clean airplane.  I *love* Mr. Levelling thinner! 

 

It only took a couple of minutes to put on a coat of Mr. Surfacer primer.  I also primed a paint mule to practice on so that I don't goof this up again! ;) 

 

 

VJZKsmk.jpg

 

Bonus points if you can name what kit the paint mule came from. :D 

 

xZjCbdi.jpg

 

Careful inspection of the primed model showed that the areas where I scraped and sanded looked just fine.  That's a good thing!


Last night I thought I would paint the Silver Leaf on so it could sit over night.


Oooo... Shiny!  (Again)

 

vo8SvCL.jpg

 

Today was masking.  I'm choosing only to do the wings today and the body will be later.  I'm ready for my close up, Mr. DeVille:

 

FH738cZ.jpg

 

Now the tricky part!  How to photograph an NMF!  The Alclad went on fine, because I actually did it right this time!  Just put on thin layers until you're satisfied with the results.  Easy Peasy.  The photos make it look more dull than it really is.  It is not quite as reflective as the Silver Leaf, but not by much.  In some light you can hardly see the contrast and from other angles they are quite obvious.

 

LmY7yNA.jpg

 

NrW9Uir.jpg

 

KAYLbIg.jpg

 

92Fmkqb.jpg

 

HcsioeY.jpg

 

WrBV1t6.jpg

 

Then I masked the darker panels and painted with Mr. Color Super Metallic stainless steel.  I used this on my F-84E build and the contrast was much less than you see here.  I think it's because Tamiya AS-12 is darker than their silver leaf.  I may have to remask and dust these panels with some Alclad aluminum to lighten them up.

 

qvFnUmP.jpg

 

ZiDzyts.jpg

 

3nWMedG.jpg

 

The super metallic has a grain that is noticeable under magnification, but not at arms length.  It has a delightful reflectivity and is as easy to use as the other Mr. Color paints.

 

I really wish the pictures did the Alclad justice.  It looks too dull in the pictures.  In real life, it provides a nice and subtle contrast.

 

Don't know if I will get to the body today or not.  There is going to be a lot of masking and I'm not 100% sure of how I want to paint it.

 

 

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last night I had an hour, so I masked the panels on the fuselage that I wanted to be Alclad White Aluminum and painted them.  They turned out wonderfully!  The color difference in the panels becomes more obvious at some angles and not so much at other angles.  Just like real metal aircraft! :) 

 

So, from the side:

 

UHdpic7.jpg

 

and then a couple angles:

 

b8gMHUY.jpg

 

17ScJkb.jpg

 

Those stainless steel panels were just a little too dark and I wasn't entirely happy with the white aluminum panels on the wings -- I think I over compensated my earlier mistake by not putting enough on.  After seeing how great the fuselage turned out I decided I would fix the wing panels. I also decided I would dust a little white aluminum on the darker panels to lighten them up a bit.  They do stand out in the original photos, just not that much. Plus I still had the stainless steel panels on the fuselage to do.

 

So, masking again. :tired:  I didn't think there would be a lot of masking... 🤔

 

gofVzSw.jpg

 

But the results were worth it!  The Stainless steel panels are just about right to my eye and the White Aluminum wing panels are so much better now! :D 

 

I might have over done the White aluminum dusting on the Stainless Steel on the cowl (like the cowl flaps) because they almost look the same as the white aluminum on the side of the cowl.  I dunno... you be the judge.

 

R4BjVFz.jpg

 

asRIrLO.jpg

 

CS4Bq3U.jpg

 

pX2YIWL.jpg

 

2rBHwXh.jpg

 

LAJorzZ.jpg

 

izMVOl2.jpg

 

So if I have time tomorrow, I need to mask and paint the color bits (control surfaces, anti glare and recognition bands on the leading edges).  That's all I have time for tonight... I'm already late for bed... arrrgghhh.

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, opus999 said:

because they almost look the same as the white aluminum on the side of the cowl.  I dunno... you be the judge.


I think it looks great.  I also think that we modellers tend to exaggerate the NMF effect; a study of photographs (and even being up close to the real thing) show mostly uniform tone and reflectivity on metal aircraft with just a hint of variation rather than a patchwork.  Obviously where different metals are used there is variation, but the duraluminium skin is pretty uniform.  This not meant as a criticism, just general musings...

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So... puzzler of the day:  Hasegawa doesn't have any specific instructions for the color of the control surfaces.  I've seen NMF Frank builds where the control surfaces are light gray green.  I know they were fabric because I found a pdf of the original report the folks at Wright-Patterson wrote after testing it. So I went looking for photos of NMF Franks that show the control surfaces.  There aren't many. :(  However consider these:

 

ebjCICD.jpg

 

bjtZMnl.jpg

 

6Y87LnZ.jpg

 

J0RC22e.jpg

 

If I were to guess, I'd say the control surfaces on these examples are not painted gray (actually 3 are the same plane). If I were to guess, it was a silver paint?  Does anyone have some definite information?

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, mark.au said:

 I also think that we modellers tend to exaggerate the NMF effect;

Oh, I agree.  Actually, this hits on something I've thought about a lot since coming back to the hobby.  I think it easy to exaggerate a lot of techniques. I just saw a build the other day that had post-shaded panel lines that were so dark that the aircraft looked like it had stripes and it actually detracted from the camo.  Early on, when I learned new techniques, I often had to stop myself and dial it back a bit.  I think it's because when I figured out a new technique, I wanted to make sure people could see it so they knew I could do it.  Often times I would finish and say "wow, that's really cool", but it didn't occur to me that it may not be accurate.  So I have a corny saying: "Is it cool, or is it correct?"  Because if I find myself saying "wow, that's neat!" when I do something, I maybe focusing more on the technique than the accuracy.  It's easy to do.  Anymore my mantra is "subtlety"... Don't know if I always get there but I try. :) 

 

Frankly, to me, the highest praise is if someone says that a build is realistic.  I've seen some builds that I had a hard time telling that they weren't the real thing.  But I am a modeler who goes for realism.  I know others go for artistic effects, and some build 'em clean.  But that is a completely different discussion.

 

17 hours ago, mark.au said:

This not meant as a criticism, just general musings...

Understood! :) I must confess, I adjusted the f-stop on the camera to really bring out the contrast... I guess I wanted to show people I could do it! :laugh: It is more subtle in real life.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oooh!  A T.A.I.U. Frank with US markings!   😍🤩😎

 

I should've at least suspected there was one of these, but these are the first pictures I've seen.  Now I have an excuse to build one!  

 

If some decal manufacturer like DK were to make a great big omnibus sheet of captured Japanese aircraft in US markings I would so buy it.  If some outfit like Kagero marketed a monograph/decal set I would happily buy that too.  I know Rising put out a set of captured Japanese planes but they seem to be unavailable at this time.  ☹️

 

 

47 minutes ago, opus999 said:

If I were to guess, I'd say the control surfaces on these examples are not painted gray (actually 3 are the same plane). If I were to guess, it was a silver paint?  

 

Split the baby with a mix of grey and aluminium?  Sort of an aluminised dope effect, nice matte finish to it to add some texture to the sheen of the model?

 

 

11 minutes ago, opus999 said:

So I have a corny saying: "Is it cool, or is it correct?"

 

Reminds me of the old hot rod debate over what's more important, going fast or looking good?  I recall one wag responded "going fast is looking good."  

 

Correct is cool.  😎  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, opus999 said:

I've seen NMF Frank builds where the control surfaces are light gray green.  I know they were fabric because I found a pdf of the original report the folks at Wright-Patterson wrote after testing it. So I went looking for photos of NMF Franks that show the control surfaces.  There aren't many. :(  However consider these:

I would think silver dope ? Anything darker in the tropical climates I would think would effect the longevity of the fabric/glue bond. My personal opinion and training as an A&P makes me think this. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

Now I have an excuse to build one!  

:D  you're welcome!

 

1 hour ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

Split the baby with a mix of grey and aluminium?  Sort of an aluminised dope effect, nice matte finish to it to add some texture to the sheen of the model?

 

15 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I would think silver dope ?

I was thinking aluminum paint, but forgot about aluminum dope.  I'd thought about using Alclad's RAF high speed silver, because it is more of a "silver paint" look than a metal look.  I'm not as familiar with aluminum dope as I should be. Is it shiny? dull? somewhere in between?

 

Maybe RAF High Speed Silver with a little dull aluminum misted over the top?

Edited by opus999
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Had a little time and got the Yellow identification bands and anti glare on...

 

J12StHZ.jpg

 

Wl0xP8N.jpg

 

I'm starting to think about weathering/wear.  I've found that my standard techniques are not all that effective with bare metal builds.  I've just never been that pleased with the weathering and wear on my NMF planes.  Not sure what to do differently though.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The zeros tended to have darker flaps if i recall.  I would surmise it would be a silver dope but im sure it could have easily been late war colours like the grey-green/ grey combo.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, opus999 said:

Had a little time and got the Yellow identification bands and anti glare on...

 

J12StHZ.jpg

 

Wl0xP8N.jpg

 

I'm starting to think about weathering/wear.  I've found that my standard techniques are not all that effective with bare metal builds.  I've just never been that pleased with the weathering and wear on my NMF planes.  Not sure what to do differently though.

She’s looking great!!! 😀 you could have a go with smoke as I mentioned on the first page with a light black wash or maybe an oil wash. I have used total oil washes in the past too and those work well. I know you aren’t a fan of heavy weathering. I’m not sure where my builds fit in on your spectrum but maybe they’re too much but I also like to keep things subtle and I also want to please myself. That’s the beauty of the hobby right. Either way if you do decide to wash don’t forget the top coat. I have used regular Tamiya gloss but sometimes that muted the finish. The best I have come across are the Vallejo gloss for metallics. I used to AB it on but now just use a brush in light passes. It seems to keep the lustre a lot mor than regular top coats.

 

good luck with your endeavours. 😇

 

Johnny 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, opus999 said:

I was thinking aluminum paint, but forgot about aluminum dope.  I'd thought about using Alclad's RAF high speed silver, because it is more of a "silver paint" look than a metal look.  I'm not as familiar with aluminum dope as I should be. Is it shiny? dull? somewhere in between?

Ive often mixed White or a Lt. Grey of some sort into Aluminum to dull it and give it a different tone. 
 

As for weathering KISS is your best on this front Keep it Simple Silly. I usually just go with some oil spray, exhaust, and gun smoke. Maybe a little dirt kicked up behind the prop and wheels depending on the surface of the operating runway ? For oil and grime i use Black and Brown ink with standard Isopropyl to thin it down and streak it. I used basic super fine tip calligraphy pens for this as I can  place it on in controlled dots by basically writing on the model. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

you could have a go with smoke as I mentioned on the first page with a light black wash or maybe an oil wash.

Yes, I remember the discussion about smoke.  I'm keen to try it again. I tried it on my F-84E and it came out OK... it has promise

 

HpB06qR.jpg

 

I think I was a little timid because it is pretty faint.  Smoke is glossy though, so I will need to do some tests to make sure the Metalizer sealer will blend it all together.

 

19 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

I have used total oil washes in the past too

Something else I will need to test.  I don't think I've ever done an oil wash on a NMF for fear of ruining it.  The reflective alclads get completely destroyed with just a hint of mineral spirits, but I should test on the silver leaf -- it seems to be tougher.

 

19 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

I’m not sure where my builds fit in on your spectrum but maybe they’re too much but I also like to keep things subtle

I'm loving your builds, actually! I think the weathering on them is brilliant.  I especially like how effective the "dirty" look is (like on the Mi-24)... it really looks like dirt and grime.  With my oil paints I can achieve an oil and oily grime look, but dirt still eludes me...

 

19 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

I also want to please myself.

In the end that's what it's all about!

 

19 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

As for weathering KISS is your best on this front Keep it Simple Silly.

Definitely for this build!  The few pictures of NMF Franks I've found don't show them to be terribly dirty.  I even looked at some NMF Oscars and Tojos and they didn't seem terribly dirty either.  Of course, the smoother the surface, the harder it is for dirt to stick, so that might have something to do with it too!  ;) 

 

19 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I used basic super fine tip calligraphy pens for this as I can  place it on in controlled dots by basically writing on the model. 

That's a brilliant idea!  I never thought of that. That might solve some problems for me...

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/16/2020 at 7:11 PM, Jackson Duvalier said:

 

Split the baby with a mix of grey and aluminium?  Sort of an aluminised dope effect, nice matte finish to it to add some texture to the sheen of the model?

 

On 12/16/2020 at 8:42 PM, Beazer said:

I would surmise it would be a silver dope

 

On 12/16/2020 at 11:57 PM, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Ive often mixed White or a Lt. Grey of some sort into Aluminum to dull it and give it a different tone. 

I liked all you your thinking.  Yesterday, I did some experimenting with my metallic shades and ended up with a 50:50 mix of Alclad's Dull aluminum and Alclad's RAF High Speed Silver (which I'd mentioned before, except here I mixed them).  The tests on the paint mule were promising, so I masked and painted the Frank.  It came out with a little more sheen than the tests, but I still think it looks like they were painted with some dope-like stuff... :) 

 

V8M6qci.jpg

 

BR3VSPx.jpg

 

OmPIdN3.jpg

 

I think I would've liked it to be a little more flat, like @Jackson Duvalier said, a nice contrast.  But I'm not masking it again! ;) 

 

Speaking of masking... 🙄 I decided that today was decal day.  I got one of the 2-part Hinomarus on and moved on to the red striping that marks the walkways on the wingroot.  I've had decent luck with clear decals in the past -- the clear decals on my NMF Hasegawa CF-104 were practically invisible. Not so here.  The clear film was matte and looked terrible.  So I mulled it over for a couple minutes (before the decal set) and decided I would need to paint it.  😕 Off came the decal, on went the tape.  ugh.  So much masking on this build!

 

uLviFDX.jpg

 

I was nervous as heck doing this, and unfortunately I had a little bleed through or something to make the starboard side line a little ragged in one spot, but you really have to look to see it.  I also had a couple of spots where masking failed somehow (this always happens... no matter how carefully I inspect for openings) and a little mist got in so that there's a couple of faint pink spots on the fuselage.  I rubbed them with a soft cloth, which helped, but they are still there.  The draw back to Silver Leaf compared to Alclads or the AK stuff I was using is you can't touch it up.  With the other paints I've been able to give it a little shot or some misting to cover up some oops, but I've found you can't do that with the Silver Leaf.  Luckily, the worst of the spots is in the right location to look like a reflection of the red on the wing. 

 

dGKr7x8.jpg

 

12XwLu9.jpg

 

I'm pretty happy with those, they look a lot better than the decals, i can tell you that!

 

Maybe that's enough excitement for today. I'd hoped to have the decals finished, but maybe tomorrow...

Edited by opus999
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh lovely.

 

JOaNyrA.jpg

 

It stuck to the paper towel when I was pressing it down.

 

All the hinamarus in my spares box are the wrong size and color.  So I guess I'm going to have to paint it.  Trouble is, I don't have a red that matches either.  Plus masking over the white decal stands a good chance of pulling it up as well.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had an inspiration a couple of minutes after writing the last post (and as I was sitting down to dinner):  I wondered if there was anyway to detach the decal piece from the paper towel (or even find it).  I found it on the paper towel but it was stuck pretty tight -- I would tear it if I pulled too hard -- so I swirled the piece of paper towel in the decal water and the decal piece came loose.  But it was folded on itself!  I had no idea how to get it straightened out, so I swirled it around in the water until I saw a corner.  I took some tweezers and gently pulled and it slowly started to separate.  I thought I was going to tear it but some how I got it apart.  Except for a sharp crease in the middle it was mostly flat.  I dug a wet decal paper out of the trash and slid the decal piece onto it and then applied it back to the model.  Once I got it all aligned, I gave it a liberal helping of Mr. Mark Softer.

 

After family movie night, I went and checked and I'll be darned if you can't tell.  well, there's a little white spot, but that's it. Wow.  Better to be lucky than good!

 

So for the 2nd time in this build, I've learned that walking away to clear the head can allow you to come up with a sensible solution.  Or at least a wild and crazy one to try. I'm so glad, I really didn't want to paint that on --  I'm not sure I could've matched the paint.

 

🥳 

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Can you get a spare from another kit ? Maybe the manufacturer or someone here has them in the spare file ? 
 

I have some Hase hinomaru’s in 1/48 but dont know if that’ll help ? 

Thanks for the offer, my friend, but as you can see I was lucky once again.  I feel like Han Solo. :D 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glad you could save the Hinomaru, decal mishaps over NMF are particularly disheartening.

 

 

4 hours ago, opus999 said:

I think I would've liked it to be a little more flat, like @Jackson Duvalier said, a nice contrast.  But I'm not masking it again! ;) 

 

(Acrylic matte and a small flat paintbrush require no masking. 🤫)

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...