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Ki-84 Frank, Hasegawa 1/72 -- Bare metal odyssey!


opus999

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I only started using my airbrush this past August. I used Tamiya XF-16 Flat Aluminum for the undersurface of my Hurricane.

I thinned it with X20A thinned at about a 50/50 mix with a wee bit of Tamiya Retarder added. I had no issue with it and no tip clogging nor splatter.

 

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Chris

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52 minutes ago, opus999 said:

I almost never hear of anyone using Testors Acryl and maybe that's why!  In fact, I'm not sure its even made any more!

😐 Oh You used Testors Acryl ... No wonder you had issues. Ive not met one person that has successfully used them ? 

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1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

I used Tamiya XF-16 Flat Aluminum for the undersurface of my Hurricane.

Wow, that looks nice Chris!

 

57 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Ive not met one person that has successfully used them ? 

Well, I guess I know why I had trouble, then.  :) That was a terrible introduction to acrylics! 

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Tamiya is my go-to for airbrushing.  Works beautifully, easily, and most important, predictably.  It never leaves me wondering what I did wrong or right, it just works.  My preference is Mr. Color Levelling thinner but one can also reduce Tamiya acrylics with X20A thinner (which I think is merely expensive imported IPA), IPA from the druggists, or DIY store lacquer thinner (which tends to leave a finely grainy, very matte finish, which is sometimes desired).  I'd advise not to attempt brushing Tamiya acrylics though some can pull off that stunt.  Tamiya also lifts very easily with any amount of alcohol which can be handy, but make sure to seal it if any additional alcoholic surface treatments will be applied.

 

Vallejo and Vallejo Model Air work well for brushing, but are IMO frustrating to spray.  Always a knock-down, drag-out fight against clogging, spitting, and the worst tip dry and resulting paint build-up on the needle.  That being said, the end results somehow always come out looking pretty good.  

 

As this is a family-friendly-ish forum, I'll keep my opinions regarding Testor Acryl to myself.  :swear:

 

Your cockpit looks great with the minor upgrades.  In my old age I'm developing more of an appreciation of very basic interior details in 1/72, not much point detailing areas that can't and therefore won't be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

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I've never tried Alclad as apartment living precludes the use of overly smelly paints, but I have used most of others though and this is what I've found;  

 

The Tamiya just looks like paint to me, too grainy.

 

My favourite NMF finish was a product called SNJ but it was also the most fragile and was also smelly but I was using it back in the days before apartment life - the only safe way to mask it was with wet paper (which is actually a pretty useful technique).  

 

I currently use Vallejo and find them extremely useful and despite reports to the contrary, really quite tough.  I've masked on it with tamiya tape within 30min of application with no trouble.  It's easy to change its shade on the fly, and gives a great finish for a worn, used NMF finish, as on ETO Mustangs, for example.

 

I also use foil occasionally, which of course actually is metal, so looks great too.  That's actually harder to mask over because tape can lift the foil...

 

I'd post pics of all three as examples but I'm wary of hijacking your thread with my models 🙂 

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1 hour ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

stuff I said earlier blah blah blah

 

Can't seem to edit what I wrote above but I didn't make it clear I was talking about general colours, not metalisers.  In my limited experience, I get the best NMF with Alclad, though I have noticed when they get old they spray "stringy," like metallic spider web blowing out of the airbrush.  This is disconcerting.  

 

I can't yet get as nice a result as dogsbody did on his Hurricane using Tamiya acrylics.  Vallejo Model Air aluminium has no discernible grain to my eye, but still looks "painty," just the thing to represent aluminium dope on fabric control surfaces or a silver-painted airframe.

 

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3 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

I'd advise not to attempt brushing Tamiya acrylics though some can pull off that stunt.

I'm one of them, although I only use it for very small jobs.  Usually only the tires with their NATO black.  For me the trick is to get the brush wet with water and then only go over it once... let it dry... and then attempt a 2nd coat.  I wouldn't try to a whole A/C with just a hand brush.

 

2 hours ago, mark.au said:

a product called SNJ

I'd heard a lot about SNJ.  Lots of people liked it.

 

2 hours ago, mark.au said:

I also use foil occasionally

Tried that once.  Looked great... got bored... still half finished! :) 

 

1 hour ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

I have noticed when they get old they spray "stringy," like metallic spider web blowing out of the airbrush.  This is disconcerting.

How old?  I have a couple bottles that are a couple years old.  I wouldn't be pleased to have that surprise one day...

 

2 hours ago, mark.au said:

I'd post pics of all three as examples but I'm wary of hijacking your thread with my models

A picture of each would be fine... :) 

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Not a productive weekend... lots going on.  However, it's a basic enough kit that with just a little time I got a lot done.  This has to be one of the best fitting kits I've made, except for the cowl. The cowl fit fine, but there were no alignment pegs so I had to be very precise in its placement before I wicked the glue into the seam.  As it was, there was a low spot on the underside that was easy to fill and fix.  Also, the seam was a bit wide in places.

 

it5dxBA.jpg

 

8xJFE7W.jpg

 

...but, they were easily filled.  Unfortunately that was at the expense of the panel line that the seam was supposed to represent, but since it turns out there will be different shades on either side of the seam, I think it will look OK.

 

The seam work didn't take very long at all.  I made sure that the coarsest sand paper I used was 2400 grit and progressively worked down to 6000 grit.  Here's some shots using light reflection so you can see how they look

 

MpJPhyz.jpg

 

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There were some scratches that are visible, but (in theory) they should be OK, because the coarsest sandpaper was 2400 grit and the Mr. Surfacer 1500 should fill those in.  It's worked OK for me before, but I will make sure to examine those spots closely before applying the NMF.

 

The wings fit perfectly, so I didn't need to do any work on those seams.  ...and ... it looks like an airplane, folks!

 

PxWhMGE.jpg

 

I'd hoped to at least get the primer on, but the kids were asking to play a card game.  How could I say no?  :D 

 

 

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4 hours ago, opus999 said:

For me the trick is to get the brush wet with water and then only go over it once... let it dry... and then attempt a 2nd coat.

For me when I brush Tamiya (rarely) I always use Isopropyl alcohol. The one time I used water it turned out a mess. I let it dry a little while and build up the coats. Usually two occasionally three. Good work so far BTW

5 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

though I have noticed when they get old they spray "stringy," like metallic spider web blowing out of the airbrush.  This is disconcerting.

That happened to me using Lacquer thinner to thin down Model-master international orange. First time went like butter, second time day-glo spiderwebs ? So now I only thin enamel with enamel spirits. 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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17 hours ago, mark.au said:

You asked for it..

Wow! Those are terrific! The bottom one looks about like what the AK Interactive extreme metal aluminum will do.  

 

16 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I always use Isopropyl alcohol.

I've never thought to use Isopropyl.  That's a great idea -- I'll have to try it.

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I've often used "rub'n buff" silver wax paste reasonably successfully for NMF. It gives a pretty good "not highly polished" but also "not silver painted" metal look. Apply directly to grey plastic, though as with all NMFs, any scratches, gaps, marks will stand out pretty badly. It's a useful alternative to the other paints/foils etc. particularly if you don't have an airbrush and/or don't want to be chucking nasty solvents around.

 

Thin slightly with white spirit and brush on. As long as it's not thinned too much you won't get brush marks. It can be buffed to up the shine a bit, but go easy or it'll all rub off - you can always slap some more on though. Don't worry about it beng a paste and blocking panel lines and so on; it really goes on very thin and leaves details unharmed.

 

I always seal with Klear/future after (as I do with Alclad too) as it will rub off otherwise. As with Alclad, this does knock back the metal look a bit, but it's still way better than silver paint IMO.

 

I'm a fan of using various backing colours with alclad as I've ssen on another thread here recently, and did a few experiments on this way back when. High gloss black (alclad's own primer) gives a really polished finish (using Alclad polished aluminium of course) with gloss greys, blues etc. all giving slightly different colours/sheen. Use matt grey or silver paint as a backing for dull or doped finishes. This technique doesn't work with the rub'n buff though, as it forms an opaque coat.

 

Here's the belly of a P-47 I did recently using rub'n buff - Klear seal coat and brown oil wash. Please ignore every other aspect of what you see - this was an early "lockdown special afternoon OOB"!

 

I use rub'n buff as my go-to silver paint for UC legs etc. as well. Thinned with white spirit it goes on a treat. You can also mix it with a dark grey enamel to get a buffable gunmetal.

 

50612403818_81d0d6a5be_k.jpg

 

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Got a nice coat of Mr. Surfacer 1500 on last night.  Very close examination of the surface and seams revealed no scratches!

 

cvOpxk9.jpg

 

I let it sit until after dinner, then I masked it and sprayed on the Silver Leaf.  I wanted it to take a little while to dry because that seems to increase it's reflectiveness.  So, after I decanted it into the airbrush cup, I added what I thought was enough Mr. Levelling thinner to make a 2:1 to 3:1 ratio of paint to thinner.  Of course, that is a total guess because you can't be very precise when decanting.  Then I sprayed on a wet coat, let it sit for a couple minutes and sprayed on another wet coat and let it sit over night -- I used a clothespin on the shaft where the propeller will go to support it all night.

 

uSamDf9.jpg

 

Shiny!

 

Tonight I masked the wings for applying the Alclad White Aluminum.  Hopefully I will be able to paint it tonight.

 

ZTa1bKT.jpg

 

 

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14 hours ago, Model Mate said:

Here's the belly of a P-47 I did recently using rub'n buff - Klear seal coat and brown oil wash. Please ignore every other aspect of what you see - this was an early "lockdown special afternoon OOB"!

I am amazed at how realistic that metal finish is!  I honestly could believe it is really sheet metal.  As much as I like the finish I got on the Frank so far, there is a certain artificial look to it.  The finish on your P-47 is the most realistic looking I've seen so far on an NMF!  I will need to look into that.

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Arrgh.  It's always something...

 

So I painted on the Alclad White Aluminum on the wings and it didn't look right at all.  It looked like glossy silver paint, not like a metal, like it usually does.  Then when I pulled off the tamiya masking tape this happened:

 

LnAr6xy.jpg

 

It was a ragged edge and it looked terrible.  But that wasn't the worst:

 

T4f3ydA.jpg

 

Yeah, the tape stuck to the Alclad and pulled a chunk of it up. 

 

So, I took it to the sink and sanded it down with 3600 grit sand paper.  Except it won't budge.  All the silver leaf around it sanded away but all I did was round the edges off.  And it is really thick too!  I don't know what happened.  I stopped sanding because I was starting to completely eliminate the surface detail.  I put another coat of Silver Leaf on the wings and now I'm stuck with this:

 

KdonUp0.jpg

 

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The port wing would be OK, because it follows the outline of the panel, but the starboard wing with that chunk taken out is going to stand out like a sore thumb.  I would love to get rid of those panels, but if I sand the surface detail will disappear completely.  So I am completely open to suggestions.

 

I can't really do any other work on it in the meantime because any "fixing" I attempt may ruin that work too.

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4 hours ago, opus999 said:

The port wing would be OK, because it follows the outline of the panel, but the starboard wing with that chunk taken out is going to stand out like a sore thumb.  I would love to get rid of those panels, but if I sand the surface detail will disappear completely.  So I am completely open to suggestions.

My best suggestion is to re-mask the panel to the correct shape. Then use Mr.Surfacer or the Tamiya equivalent probably the 1000 or 1500 grit variety as its not as thick to build up the missing jagged piece. Once its dry repaint it the white aluminum, if I have the color correct ? I use surfacer that way layered on Stuka’s and other types of aircraft to build up armor panels. 

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6 hours ago, opus999 said:

Arrgh.  It's always something...

 

Damn! Never seen anything like that before, especially the raised profile from just a coat of paint...   I think I'd take it back to plastic and start again. 

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Well, this hurt...

 

U8yySas.jpg

 

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I had to keep telling myself it was for the best... 😟  I woke earlier than usual and had a little time before work so I tested a couple of ideas.  Since I'd sprayed some swatches of these paints on my mule earlier, I thought I'd try solvents.  The paint thinner looked like it would put a dent in the paint so I carefully used it on the model.  It took off the silver leaf lickedy-split, but the Alclad was stubborn and only a little bit was coming off with all the scrubbing.  That's why the starboard wing looks different from the port wing.  Later in the day when I had a break I took a dull knife and laid the blade practically on its side and was able to cut away most of the Alclad.  I then gently scraped the remainder off with the blade upright.  After work I sanded the area with 2400 grit sandpaper, then polished with 6000 grit:

 

bCi9ygO.jpg

 

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A quick shot of Mr. Surfacer 1500:

 

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I'm afraid the surface detail on those panels is pretty much gone, but I was able to keep the damage to just the panels.  Looking at the surface after the primer, it looks like it is smooth enough.  

 

After that I broke the airbrush down and cleaned it thoroughly.  Not that I think that had anything to do with the problem, but it was getting to be time to do it.

 

I must've really  gotten that Alcald on thick.  Although, for the life of me, I don't know how.  I must not have been paying attention?

 

Well, anyway.  Time for "take 2".

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Well, no dice.  It looks just as bad as before, just sunken in, instead of raised. 

 

I would strip the paint off, but my preferred method of Simple Green doesn't strip Mr. Surfacer and I would have to take it all the way to plastic to get it to look right.

 

Does anyone have any ideas how to get paint off, short of sanding?  I would like to preserve what little surface detail I have. 

 

I suppose I could make this one the camo one and strip the old one down and make it NMF, but I'd like to figure out how to fix this instead.  Because what would I do if I didn't have an extra kit?

Edited by opus999
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1 hour ago, opus999 said:

Does anyone have any ideas how to get paint off, short of sanding?  I would like to preserve what little surface detail I have. 

Ive heard oven cleaner works well. 
 

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/general_discussion/f/9/t/164010.aspx

 

Ive even heard old stories of auto brake cleaner and WD40 but that was in the 80’s and 90’s, not much since then. I personally use Tamiya Lacquer thinner (Tan cap) to remove paint. I soak a Make-up swab and use that. 

 

https://www.tamiyausa.com/shop/finishing/lacquer-thinner-250ml/

 

https://www.ulta.com/premium-cotton-pads?productId=xlsImpprod5660008&sku=2260619&CMPID=CSGGLE&CAWELAID=330000200000002630
 

Dennis

 

Use the Tamiya sparingly and follow with water. It can effect the plastic. 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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11 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Ive heard oven cleaner works well. 
 

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/general_discussion/f/9/t/164010.aspx

 

Ive even heard old stories of auto brake cleaner and WD40 but that was in the 80’s and 90’s, not much since then. I personally use Tamiya Lacquer thinner (Tan cap) to remove paint. I soak a Make-up swab and use that. 

 

https://www.tamiyausa.com/shop/finishing/lacquer-thinner-250ml/

 

https://www.ulta.com/premium-cotton-pads?productId=xlsImpprod5660008&sku=2260619&CMPID=CSGGLE&CAWELAID=330000200000002630
 

Dennis

 

Use the Tamiya sparingly and follow with water. It can effect the plastic. 

 

Dennis -- Brake fluid was my go-to in the 90's and it worked very well. I refurbished an F-5E, an SBD Dauntless and a B-66B that way.  But that was before I discovered lacquers and even Simple Green won't make those budge. I'm keen to try the Tamiya thinner.  I'm a little scared of oven cleaner and NMF after my bad experience with Chemicals and Alclad documented here: 

 

 

I'm really debating what to do. 

  • One option is to rig up a jig to just get one wing at a time in the simple green that will likely take off the Silver leaf but not the Mr. Surfacer. Then I could sand the bad spots better and then paint the over coat fresh.
  • I could try the Tamiya thinner and maybe get down to plastic, which would be the best option. I wonder if the Tamiya Lacquer thinner is any different from the big jug of the stuff I got from the hardware store?  Maybe it isn't as strong?

Those two options would allow me to complete an NMF build.  To make a camo build I think I'd have to take off the Silver leaf because I don't know how well the paint would stick to it.  I guess I could test that theory easily enough though.  The trouble with soaking the a/c to get the paint off is it would ruin the cockpit.  I'd need to get creative...

 

Frankly I'd rather pursue the NMF route because I worked so hard to get the surface detail just right using your suggestion.  Hmm....

 

Sorry -- a lot of thinking out loud here.  Carry on.

Edited by opus999
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9 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

Sorry to hear about the setbacks. 

 

I'd be tempted to blank slate the whole works with Mr. Surfacer Black.  Then the sanding indentation could be more objectively assessed and you could repaint with metallics or camouflage as appropriate.

 

 

I didn't post pictures, but I put a new coat of metallic and the sanding indentation is noticeable enough that it needs to be fixed one way or the other. But I agree with you... at the very least the wings need to be stripped.

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